Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Han1

macrumors newbie
Original poster
Dec 15, 2024
28
7
I have a problem with an SSD that's been driving me mad for the past few hours.

I'm connecting to a StarTech dock, using either TB3 or USB-C (get the same results). It screams with no encryption and practically grinds to a halt with encryption (Black Magic tests and I'm seeing the same with real world performance).

I have another SSD that's the same size. It works fine. I've tried switching the cables and I get the same results.

It's an old portable Integral 512GB. I don't have the part number. I must have reformatted the drive 50 times. I've run first aid.

Looks like this one.

s-l960.webp


Is this a known problem with some older SSDs and APFS?
 
Try connecting directly to your Mac, no hub.

Thanks. I'm getting the same results on every port (MBA TB3 or Dock TB3 / USB-C)

Blackmagic shows writes are -90% and reads are -60% when encrypted. I have an identically sized Reviva SSD (probably a different spec) that has no such problems on the same ports (using the same cable).

Maybe it's the SSD specs. I can't find any record of purchasing them and the Integral doesn't have a part number on it.

I'm resigned to having to use it for photos and unencrypted. I was hoping there would be something obviously wrong with my set-up.

Thanks again.
 
Need more details:

What connection speed (readout from System Profiler)?
What is your mac?
What are the actual readouts on speed differences?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Han1
There are plenty of MacOS / Mac Hardware incompatible USB Chipsets and SSD/NVME Controller Chips so if this Oldie or No Name SSD is not dying, it is just incompatible.

And beside its age, it seems to be slower than actual Spinning Hard Drives:


Specifications
CAPACITY512GB
INTERFACE TYPEUSB3.0
FORM FACTOR1.8-inch
DATA TRANSFER RATESRead speed up to 220MB/sec
Write speed up to 120MB/sec

These speeds are based on Integral testing at USB3.0 full speed
HDD DETAILSBuilt-in SSD Solid State Disk
DIMENSIONS92mm x 54mm x 9mm
WEIGHT41g
SYSTEM REQUIREMENTSUSB 3.0 port (USB 2.0 compatible, at USB 2.0 transfer speed)
Windows XP / Vista / 7 / 8
Mac OS X (10.2.8 and above) - USB 3.0 transfer speed with compatible Mac hardware
ACCESSORIES INCLUDEDUSB3.0 cable
SPECIAL FEATURESUltra-compact, size of a credit card
USB powered
DEVICE TYPEExternal portable storage drive
COLOURBlack
PACKAGINGRetail packaging
WARRANTY2 years manufacturers warranty
 
  • Like
Reactions: Han1
On a tangental issue, I am curious if anyone knows what is required by Apple from an SSD for "Hardware AES Support"?

I recently moved my Samsung 970 Pro from a USB/NVMe enclosure to a TB3/NVMe enclosure. This enabled SMART support as well as >2x sequential I/O speeds but then I also noticed that "diskutil" said "Hardware AES Support: No". I wasn't counting on that but was surprised once I saw it since that SSD supposedly supports:
AES 256-bit Encryption (Class 0)TCG/Opal IEEE1667 (Encrypted drive)

Does Apple support Hardware AES on any non-Apple SSD?
 
Need more details:

What connection speed (readout from System Profiler)?
What is your mac?
What are the actual readouts on speed differences?

Thanks.

It's a MacBook Air M1. Not sure how to get connection speeds. I had a look at System Report and couldn't find anything obvious. The config is MBA M1 TB3 to StarTech TB3 Dock, with a USB-C connection for the SSD (to the TB3 port on the StarTech).

I've tried connecting directly to the TB3 on the MBA and I get similar results.

This is essentially a holding pattern activity. I'm trying to utilise some existing drives for additional storage until I'm happy to go down the NVMe route (concerns about current thermals and power management with an NVMe enclosure).

Here are the BlackMagic results (only a 2GB test, the SSD can't cope with 5GB encrypted)

Screenshot 2024-12-27 at 22.03.59.png
 
There are plenty of MacOS / Mac Hardware incompatible USB Chipsets and SSD/NVME Controller Chips so if this Oldie or No Name SSD is not dying, it is just incompatible.

And beside its age, it seems to be slower than actual Spinning Hard Drives:


Specifications
CAPACITY512GB
INTERFACE TYPEUSB3.0
FORM FACTOR1.8-inch
DATA TRANSFER RATESRead speed up to 220MB/sec
Write speed up to 120MB/sec

These speeds are based on Integral testing at USB3.0 full speed
HDD DETAILSBuilt-in SSD Solid State Disk
DIMENSIONS92mm x 54mm x 9mm
WEIGHT41g
SYSTEM REQUIREMENTSUSB 3.0 port (USB 2.0 compatible, at USB 2.0 transfer speed)
Windows XP / Vista / 7 / 8
Mac OS X (10.2.8 and above) - USB 3.0 transfer speed with compatible Mac hardware
ACCESSORIES INCLUDEDUSB3.0 cable
SPECIAL FEATURESUltra-compact, size of a credit card
USB powered
DEVICE TYPEExternal portable storage drive
COLOURBlack
PACKAGINGRetail packaging
WARRANTY2 years manufacturers warranty
Thanks. I couldn't find the exact spec. until your post. Interestingly, I seem to be getting quite better results with it connected to my TB3 port with USB-C. My HDDs (not the latest) get results similar to the encrypted results I posted above.
 
  • Like
Reactions: genexx
Thanks.

It's a MacBook Air M1. Not sure how to get connection speeds. I had a look at System Report and couldn't find anything obvious. The config is MBA M1 TB3 to StarTech TB3 Dock, with a USB-C connection for the SSD (to the TB3 port on the StarTech).

You can find the connection speed in different places of System Report/Inforamation depending on how your Mac ultimately sees the drive.

If it sees it as a NVMe drive, you'll find the drive and it's "Link Speed:" under NVMExpress (e.g. 8.0 GT/s).

If it sees it as a USB drive, you'll find the drive under USB and it's "Speed:" (e.g. most likely 5 or 10 Gb/s).

Given that it's a TB3 dock, you should also see the connection to it under Thunderbolt. There you should see "Speed:" and "Current Link Width:" (most likely 0x4).
 
You can find the connection speed in different places of System Report/Inforamation depending on how your Mac ultimately sees the drive.

If it sees it as a NVMe drive, you'll find the drive and it's "Link Speed:" under NVMExpress (e.g. 8.0 GT/s).

If it sees it as a USB drive, you'll find the drive under USB and it's "Speed:" (e.g. most likely 5 or 10 Gb/s).

Given that it's a TB3 dock, you should also see the connection to it under Thunderbolt. There you should see "Speed:" and "Current Link Width:" (most likely 0x4).

Thanks. The system report shows the TB3 port as in use to my StarTech dock at 20Gbps. Beyond that, I can't find anywhere in the report to show the connection speed of what's hanging off the StarTech dock. I can see the SSD in storage, but it doesn't show how much bandwidth.

The connection is via USB-C to my StarTech TB3 port, so I do I know the speed is throttled from that point to the SSD. I'm okay with that. Eventually, I'll move to TB3 / NVMe.

My biggest concern is the performance numbers above. Same SSD, same port, same cable - writes are -90% and reads are -59% with encryption on APFS. The drop-off is huge.

(I've tried different file systems (MAC OS Journaled, Ex-Fat). They all give lower performance, so not an option.)

I'm now resigned to using the SSD unencrypted for photos. It's only a temporary solution until the NVMe products become more mature.

I was just checking here to see if there are any glaringly obvious mistakes with my encryption set-up.
 
Thanks. The system report shows the TB3 port as in use to my StarTech dock at 20Gbps. Beyond that, I can't find anywhere in the report to show the connection speed of what's hanging off the StarTech dock. I can see the SSD in storage, but it doesn't show how much bandwidth.

The connection is via USB-C to my StarTech TB3 port, so I do I know the speed is throttled from that point to the SSD. I'm okay with that. Eventually, I'll move to TB3 / NVMe.

My biggest concern is the performance numbers above. Same SSD, same port, same cable - writes are -90% and reads are -59% with encryption on APFS. The drop-off is huge.

(I've tried different file systems (MAC OS Journaled, Ex-Fat). They all give lower performance, so not an option.)

I'm now resigned to using the SSD unencrypted for photos. It's only a temporary solution until the NVMe products become more mature.

I was just checking here to see if there are any glaringly obvious mistakes with my encryption set-up.

Sidestepping a few issues which we can come back to later, little more information is needed:
-Did you recently update to Sequoia or your version of Sequoia?

Slightly different issue but if this sounds familiar this all just might be general issues with Sequoia and some external drives.


-Can you track down the actual drive model number? Seems unlikely your drive is beating its original specs so that example someone else found above may not be the same model as yours. That's like a 20 year old drive and maybe you have like a 10 year old drive...

Easiest way to get the model number at this point may be to connect drive directly to Mac and then go to System Report/Information, then to USB, and then share the info (you can scrub the serial number and related). Here is from a USB flash drive I just bought:

SanDisk 3.2Gen1:

Product ID: 0x55ab
Vendor ID: 0x0781 (SanDisk Corporation)
Version: 1.00
Speed: Up to 5 Gb/s
Manufacturer: USB
Location ID: 0x0d200000 / 1
Current Available (mA): 900
Current Required (mA): 896
Extra Operating Current (mA): 0
Media:
SanDisk 3.2Gen1:
Capacity: 250.15 GB (250,148,290,560 bytes)
Removable Media: Yes
BSD Name: disk4
Logical Unit: 0
Partition Map Type: GPT (GUID Partition Table)
S.M.A.R.T. status: Verified
USB Interface: 0


-Can you run an alternate disk benchmark tester? Something like AmorphousDiskMark would provide some more info. Also from above it looks like you posted an Excel summary of the FPS estimates from BlackMagic Disk Tester. This highlights the issue but it would easier to work from the raw MB/second numbers rather than estimated FPS of different video formats.


Side notes:
*Today's technology is giving us a lot options and therefore permutations to work with but unfortuantely this provides some ambiguity as to what you have and how it is connected. In this case:
-USB-C is a connector and now used by USB3.x, USB4, USB 4 v2 (WTF is this naming?), and Thunderbolt 3-5
-Cables can have USB-C connectors on both sides and work for all of those or just work for USB 3.x, etc.
-SSD are typically native NVMe or SATA (note these aren't exactly equivalent technically)
-Over USB, the host may connect to the drive using USB Attached SCSI Protocol (UASP) or USB Mass Storage Bulk-Only Transport (BOT)
-Over Thunderbolt, an NVMe drive basically appears to the host as if it was plugged directly into its internal PCIe bus

I bring all this up in that when you say you connect the drive via USB-C, that leaves some details ambiguous. There are certain combinations that clump together but it's hard to know for sure and therefore diagnose.

As an example, my Samsung 970 Pro NVMe drive can sit in my Plugable USB3 enclosure and connect to my Mac Mini via USB-C. But it can also sit in my Acasis Thunderbolt enclosure and connect to my Mac Mini via USB-C. But in the latter it will go >2x faster (plus gain some additional features). And since that Acasis enclosure can autonegotiate to USB or TB3 hosts and the Mac Mini autoadapts to USB or TB3 peripherals while some other Acasis enclosures are USB-only or TB3/USB4/etc only, it's hard to know what you got just by looking...

Similarly, StarTech has a lot of docks. I am surprised yours is only getting 20 Gbps and guessing yours is an older model with an older Thunderbolt chipset (probably Link Width: 0x2).

However, since you already eliminated the dock as the source of this issue by connecting the drive directly to the Mac, we can ignore the dock and whether a monitor is connected to it. If you were getting 500MB/sec when you expected 1000MB/sec then those details might be needed (monitors get priority over data over shared TB3 connections and the 1/2 speed TB3 to your dock is already less to work with).


-This is essentially a holding pattern activity. I'm trying to utilise some existing drives for additional storage until I'm happy to go down the NVMe route (concerns about current thermals and power management with an NVMe enclosure).

I wouldn't think of NVMe as hotter but rather the heat as a function of the efficiency of the particular drive and the enclosure's heat dissipation ability / quality. Where modern drives get hotter is when you run them faster. Then Thunderbolt->NVMe lets a drive run faster than through USB3->NVMe so it has the potential to run hotter. However, USB3->NVMe should run no hotter than USB3->SATA all else being equal. On the flip side, Thunderbolt->NVMe throttled to 10Gb/s it should run no hotter than USB3->NVMe. There's a even a Mac tool, Disk Mount Conditioner (from Terminal, "dmc"), to make a faster disk appear to be a slower disk (for testing/debugging purposes) but I don't recommend going that way.

For your next purchase I would look for TB3/4 -> NVMe enclosure/drive combination in which someone considered the heat dissipation quality of the enclosure and the heat efficiency of the NVMe. Either packaged by a vendor or researching the components if you plan to go the DIY route.

I can't advise on the former but can note that Arcasis sells very aluminum enclosures with fans. When I activated the fan on my new one, it dropped the actual SSD's temperature > 20 deg C. Additionally there are review sites that test NVMe drives for their MB/sec/watt. My process for selecting an SSD is 1. durability (TBW rating/TB capacity), 2. sustained sequential write speed (MB/sec after 3-5 minutes), and 3. heat efficiency (MB/sec/watt). This recently led me to purchase a Seagate Firecuda 530R versus other SSD that are cheaper and/or measure better in other dimensions. Time will tell how this theory translates into practice...
 
@bzgnyc2 firstly, thanks for such a thoughtful and exhaustive reply. Apologies for the delayed response. I've been struck down with covid.

You're right, I had recently updated to Sequoia. I also updated to 15.2 after my last post and it's showing an improvement of +25% 171mbps (writes for unencrypted - not ready to go back down the encrypted route just yet, i.e. moving files about for the encryption process). Your suggestion has definitely yielded some immediate results with 15.2.

Weirdly, the drive in question doesn't show up in system report. My two other drives are there (USB), but the Integral 512GB can't be found in USB or TB3.

I'll run some tests tomorrow and post up numbers with BlackMagic and Amorphous.

I can't update you on the SSD adapter until I can find its details in system report. My guess would be SATA and it's USB-B micro on the SSD side and then USB-C to TB3 at the dock (yes, it's the older StarTech dock). Not very elegant, but it's just a temporary measure and I expected better than 30mbps writes (encrypted).

I will go down the NVMe route eventually. I'd just like to see some progress with the heat management for the enclosure and power management over TB3. Coincidentally, I just got a notification today that the Hagibis now has a discount of 75% on Ali Express.

Thanks again.
 
Here are the results. they seem to be all over the place for writes

Picture 2.png


Screenshot 2024-12-31 at 17.22.01.png


Anecdotally, it took about 30mins to move 270GB of photo and video from another SSD to this one. Not great, but manageable, given this is only a temporary solution without much need for writes after the initial transfer.
 
A possibly impertinent question:
Does the problem SSD REALLY have to be encrypted?

It's a good question and I've already decided I'll use it unencrypted if there isn't a solution for encrypted.

It just seems a bit of a mystery and it's nagging away at me.
 
Here are the results. they seem to be all over the place for writes

View attachment 2467492

Very strange -- don't normally see SEQ1M/QD8 < SEQ1M/QD1. And of course 0.0 MB/sec on the random writes is not good.

Note that normally you would want your file to be larger than RAM (I prefer the total >= 2x RAM) though understand that's not practical in your case because the disk is so slow while operating encrypted.

Anecdotally, it took about 30mins to move 270GB of photo and video from another SSD to this one. Not great, but manageable, given this is only a temporary solution without much need for writes after the initial transfer.

To me that would be a lot. A good but 5-year old SSD connected via USB 3.x Gen 2 drive should be able to do that in ~ 5 minutes. A recent, mid-range SSD connected via TB3 should be able to do that in ~ 2 minutes.

Three questions at the moment:
1. Have you tried connecting this disk directly to the Mac again? If so did you see the disk in System Information->USB? (you may have to hit refresh). Also did you also run these same tests when connected that way?
2. Have you run the above tests on the same disk without encryption so we can see all these results side-by-side?
3. Just to confirm you are erasing and formatting the drive as APFS or APFS (Encrypted) each time you switch back and forth to do these tests?

I will see if I can reproduce these results under Sequoia using several different in the next week or so. I need to get a few things out and make sure I have backups of relevant things before I do the testing...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Han1
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.
  翻译: