HH: Six years ago, after the attack on this country, before the invasion of Iraq, I sat down with Frank Gaffney in Washington, D.C., and Frank gave me an education that was a little bit startling. He said he argued there were agents of influence of radical Islam, and of Saddam Hussein, in the United States, working from within, to destroy American security. Yesterday’s indictment of al-Hanooti in Detroit proves, Frank Gaffney, that you were right. How much attention is the media giving to this story?

FG: I don’t think they’re giving enough attention to the larger story, even if there’s some discussion of this immediate episode, because it involves a serving member of Congress, and I think one or two former members of Congress. The larger story is really the one we talked about way back before 9/11. And as far as I can tell, with relatively few exceptions, most of them in the blogosphere, the media has given a complete pass to the story of the penetration of American society by those who adhere to, and seek to impose on the rest of us, a form, an authoritarian form of what’s known as Sharia, a political, legal, religious code that is brutally repressive, as practiced by these Islamo-fascists, and would really mark the end of America as we know it if they succeed in their stated ambition. And I believe it’s true of this character, al-Amoudi…excuse me, I’m missing his name at the moment.

HH: Al-Hanooti.

FG: Al-Hanooti, thank you, excuse me. Al-Amoudi is another bad actor. But these are fellows who have been advocates of this kind of caliphate, and anti-Constitutional, in fact, seditious program of Sharia, and that story has simply not been told to the American people as it should be.

HH: Now Frank Gaffney, this is delicate stuff, and I want to go at it carefully. CAIR, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, al-Hanooti was their Michigan director. Of course, they are saying he’s a rogue, and he doesn’t represent CAIR. How deeply compromised is CAIR, based upon what we’ve learned from this indictment, and whatever they have or have not said about al-Hanooti?

FG: This is not the first CAIR official who has been indicted. In fact, several of them are actually serving time in federal prison, in connection with their support for, or actual involvement in, terrorism. CAIR itself was spawned by the terrorist organization, Islamic Association of Palestine and Hamas. It is an organization that has been identified by the Department of Justice as a Muslim Brotherhood front organization. It is an organization that has been identified by the Justice Department as an un-indicted co-conspirator in a terrorism conspiracy, financing conspiracy trial. It is, in short, a very problematic organization. It’s not just rogue officers of it who keep turning up in the defendant stock. It’s the organization itself, I believe, and more to the point, the thing that really is staggeringly unbelievable, going back to this point about the penetration of our society, the Council on American-Islamic Relations, CAIR, is being used by the Federal Bureau of Investigations to train its agents in sensitivity to the Muslim population. It’s as if in the Cold War, you had the KGB doing training of J. Edgar Hoover’s FBI. It’s unimaginable. And yet, that’s what, I think, is happening today.

HH: I’ve got to tell you, there’s one bit of good news in the world, Frank. You know, the old spy novelists like le Carre’ and Len Deighton, did a lot to educate Americans about the nature of the Soviet influence operations. I’ve just finished a number of books by [Alex] Berenson, New York Times reporter. He’s a lefty, he’s got a lefty spin on a bunch of things. But at least he’s very sober-minded in fiction. It’s called the [Faithful] Spy, and there’s another one out there, I can’t remember the second, about how fanatical and actually excellent these people are at penetration. Al-Hanooti is the Joker. He’s not the best, he’s the worst. He got caught.

FG: Well, he did, and there are others who have not yet. But I’m just looking at my friend, Debbie Schlussel’s website, going back to September, 2006, in which she shows this character, al-Hanooti, with not one but two U.S. attorneys.

HH: Wow.

FG: This is the kind of influence operation that’s been perpetrated, not just by CAIR, unfortunately, the Islamic Society of North America, the Muslim Public Affairs Council, the Islamic Council of North America, before them, sort of the mother of many of them, the American Muslim Council. These are organizations that are busily in the business of influence operations and penetration.

HH: Yes, but they’re not criminal. I want to make sure that you’re not suggesting they’re…

FG: Well, I’m suggesting that to the extent that they’re Muslim Brotherhood front organizations, and all of the ones I’ve just mentioned have been so identified by the federal government. They are working for an organization who we know now from the Holy Land Foundation trial documents is in the business of destroying the United States from within. And to the extent they espouse and promote, and are working for Sharia in America, I regard that as a seditious action, and that is illegal.

HH: Well, we have to disagree on that, Frank. But before we run out of time, because I believe that they can go out and argue for Sharia law all they want. It’s when they begin to influence the government illegally that they’ve crossed the criminal law. But I don’t want…

FG: Well, you’re the lawyer, I’m not. When they engage in actions that are consistent with the four Supreme Court rulings upholding 18 US Code 2385, I believe, it is the Smith Act, they are engaged in seditious actions that are illegal. And that is what happens when you promote the violent overthrow of the United States government. And that is unfortunately what Sharia, as practiced by the Muslim Brotherhood, and al Qaeda, and the Saudis, and the Iranians, is all about.

HH: 30 seconds, Frank, the divest from terror movement, what’s the update?

FG: Big news, just this week, the first terror-free index series has been unveiled by FTSE, the London-based stock exchange, and my friends as Conflict Security Advisory Group. It is the beginning of a new day when every American can invest terror-free, and I’m very excited to say thank you to my friend, Roger Robinson, for bringing this day to all of us.

HH: What’s the website, Frank?

FG: Ours is www.securefreedom.org, his is www.terrorfreeinvesting.com.

HH: Frank Gaffney, always a pleasure.

End of interview.