John David Washington & Malcolm Washington Have an Epic Conversation

I feel like I learned so much

in hearing your experiences with all these filmmakers

'cause these are some of my favorite filmmakers.

Obviously, Spike.

No, you gotta tell the story

when you got emotional when you came to set.

On Tenet? Yeah. [laughs]

It's so funny, you gotta tell it.

Oh my God, bro.

Oh my God.

[mellow music]

The athlete thing, I think, is super interesting.

Like, you know, you were an athlete just like me,

and I know you always wanted to be an artist,

but did you ever see the artistry

in your basketball pursuits, in your sports?

I guess I wasn't conscious of it in that way.

What's great about sports

is it combines like an intellectual part.

Like you have to think through the game and the physical.

Yeah.

Directing feels like that sometimes,

when you're on set and you have all these elements,

and there's a million problems and a million questions,

but you kind of just get in this rhythm.

Yeah. Almost like instincts can take over.

Instincts take over

and you don't even have time to be stressed about it.

You just kind of go. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm,

Do you feel like that though?

Well, I saw the artistry a little bit,

'cause I'm thinking about like the rigorous X's and O's,

and the technical aspect of like film study and all that.

So you have all of it and then you completely let it go,

because like, if the run is to the left,

but there's a defender right there,

you gotta break right. Yeah, yeah.

And so like, you're conducting a scene,

I know it's structured a certain way,

blocking is a certain way, [Malcolm laughing]

which he loves his blocking

and I guess I don't. Don't do that.

Don't do that.

But you know what, if Danielle and Piano Lesson

is hitting me with something else, I might need to pivot.

Yeah. Boy Willie needs to pivot.

I'm curious because you had...

You've talked about this before,

but you had an interesting entry point into acting.

It was the summer, 2013, pivotal summer in my life.

I had just graduated college,

and we were living together at the time.

Mm-hmm.

And you got hurt. Mm-hmm.

Very low point by the way. [both laughing]

I'm back at the house. For one of us.

My brother's there. [both laughing]

He's thriving, he got a job, I don't.

He coming home from a hard day at work.

Oh, hey, John David. What you do today?

Nothing.

Busting my ass all day.

But then it switched up though

and you got that first audition.

Yeah. Yeah.

Talk me through that. Nah, it was...

Yeah, I was out for tours as it was

to get called to be a football player.

And the whole plan was to audition.

Just get used to auditioning, get in the room, get rejected.

I'm used to rejection.

Up to that point for the last like two years

I've been doing these auditions, if you will,

workouts for teams and getting rejected.

And so I was like, Oh, that's nothing.

So what I'll do, what the plan is,

go in the room, get comfortable, move to New York, study.

And low and behold, first audition goes really well.

And then ten auditions later, over the course of two months,

I booked it. Yeah.

I feel you were auditioning for like-

It was a while. It was like a long time.

And remember, I didn't tell anybody.

No.

I mean, you knew because you were-

Watching. [laughing] I was there.

Because you were in a boot.

Yeah. I was. You tore your achilles.

You was in a boot. I was out there auditioning,

like on pain pills and- You was on crutches,

the first couple of- Right, right.

Let's run this spot one more time.

But yeah.

And so I had, of course,

obviously I had a lot of experience in the locker room

the NFL experience,

and I thought it was a hell of an opportunity

to portray a ball player, especially a wide receiver

and them being able to voice like their experiences,

and like how sometimes fans don't understand

why they'll miss camp, or the contract negotiations go awry.

Like, I thought that was a great opportunity to do that, so.

And here I am, like wanting to do this my whole life, Mal.

Like, this is it and like

this was the freaking moment. Yeah. I remember.

And our Uncle Woodson, who...

This was like a low point.

This was before the call.

I'll never forget Uncle Woodson, our uncle.

He calls me when I'm done with football, for real, for real.

And he's like, I just want you to know I'm proud of you

and you can always be a coach.

You can be a coach, or you go back to school and teach.

I was like, this is my low moment.

This is right here. Like, I gotta act now.

Because nobody believes in you.

Like Uncle Woody believes in you.

Right, I mean, he meant so well.

Like, yeah, you could coach, you could do it.

It was a great speech, but in my head I'm like, see?

He's like, Oh, it's over. I gotta stop being a punk.

I gotta go for it. And so I did.

What did you envision for yourself

in this field at that point? You know?

At that point?

Yeah, like what did you hope that you could be?

Man, it's like glory be to God,

I've been able to accomplish some of those manifestations.

With some of the filmmakers I've gotten to work with,

some of the projects I've gotten to be on,

it's mind boggling.

I can't believe that I've gotten the opportunities I have.

That they knew my work enough to trust me

to be in the position of...

You know, sometimes it was leading man,

or just being able to just to be a collaborator.

And so, I've always dreamed about that.

Dreamed about it my whole life, man.

So, it's kind of happening.

It's pretty crazy.

We talk a lot about filmmakers and movies,

and you've gotten to kind of check the list, check the box

on a bunch of people that you've wanted to work with.

So what was that like running through the greats?

Running through the greats. [Malcolm laughing]

Well, I mean, it was obviously a dream come true.

We talked about it earlier.

Like, where did you see yourself when you started?

And like, I didn't even see

some of these opportunities for me.

I knew I wanted it,

but I thought it was an impossible achievement.

But...

It surprised me on how enthusiastic

and like this pubescent joy of the filmmaking process

still remains in their spirit and in the way they behave.

When I'm telling someone I'm thinking

of like, Spike Lee and Christopher Nolan.

They get excited when an actor does something new.

They get excited

when you might go off the cuff on something.

Literally, Chris Nolan said once, Don't do it the same.

I like the fact that you're not doing it the same.

Just like, [chuckles] I remember one time, Spike,

I was like, Dude, you sure we got it?

He's like, We got it. It was like two takes.

[Malcolm laughing] I was like,

I got some other stuff. I can really...

We got it. We got it.

Just move on. Slate.

Like, move on.

I was like, man.

I mean, these are the greats, you know what I mean?

And it's not like this arrogant thing, they just know.

And to me, directors like that are actor friendly, you know?

They really seem to appreciate the people they hire.

It's almost like, I did that. I picked that.

Yeah, I picked that. So, go ahead and run it.

Yeah. So, go ahead, you know?

And so, I feel the same thing with you, man.

Like, you gave us so much space

and you know, you might hear actors say that,

but to me, it's a rare thing.

There's not a lot of directors that let you run like that,

because we were talking about it earlier,

sometimes you gonna fall so hard, it's hard to get back up

and it can get so lost, you know?

But you find a way. You just gotta keep

bringing it in a little. To bring it back in.

Yeah.

But I feel like I learned so much

in hearing your experiences with all these filmmakers.

'Cause these are some of my favorite filmmakers.

Obviously Spike.

No, you gotta tell the story

when you got emotional, when you came to set.

On Tenet? Yeah. [laughing]

It's so funny.

You gotta tell it. Oh my God, bro.

Oh my God. [John David laughing]

I pull up on Tenet.

I fuck with Nolan. Mm-hmm, of course.

He's one of the ones. He's God.

And like Nolan and Hoyte.

Hoyte like, Yeah, yeah. Shout out.

Love Hoyte. Shout out.

Love Hoyte.

So I'm coming on set.

Also, it's such a funny experience

showing up on a Nolan set, because you're like,

Okay, this is gonna be

a gigantic movie. Right.

Security's gonna be crazy. Security's gonna be crazy.

There's gonna be a hundred million people on set.

80 village, you get there, it looks like a student film.

No tent. There's like six people

that are there.

And there's Nolan doing half the jobs.

It just he and Hoyte. Him and Hoyte.

[both laughing] That's true. True.

No monitor no where.

You're like, I don't even know where we're shooting.

[John David laughs]

And he comes out and he is very regal.

Nolan like, just proper but smooth.

Yeah. Yes. Smooth. Smooth.

Comes out and he is like.

And he just gives me one of the-

His monitor, yeah. The monitor,

which is like, you know. Looked like a Gameboy.

And you put it on your neck.

And at first, I got one, and everybody looks at me like...

[both laughing]

What's going on? And can I see, you know?

'Cause nobody gets- Right, right.

So, I look at it,

and Hoyte frames up.

Also, it might've been an IMAX day.

And Hoyte going handheld on the IMAX?

Crazy. Yeah. Insane.

He does his own stunts.

[John David laughing] Yeah. Crazy.

And he frames up,

and Nolan's like, John David.

He says my name perfect by the way.

John David.

I broke down in tears. [both laughing]

I broke down in tears.

Because it was like the pilot,

this was such a Nolan movie.

Like this is it. [John David laughing]

Like, I already know what it is and it-

This is my brother. Right? This is my brother.

I literally walked away.

A production designer

that I used to work with from film school

was an assistant art director on that.

Mm-hmm. So she was there with me,

and we came up in film school together.

So I walk away, I'm like keeled over.

She puts her hand on my back. Like, You good?

She puts her hand on my back.

Like, It's all good. It's all right.

I'm like, It's just, we used to pray for times like this.

[both laughing]

That was a great one. Incredible.

That was a great one. Incredible,

but I've learned so much from those filmmakers

just through you, 'cause you would call me.

Going crazy. Just going crazy.

And telling me what the process was like.

Like what was it like on a day-by-day practical thing.

'Cause you get advice from people and they're always like,

Follow your spirits. [John David laughs]

Like, okay, but what do I do on Monday?

You know? Right.

What does that mean at rehearsal? Like what do I do?

And having you there, that went through all the doors first,

and then kind of helped walk me through it,

it was like, Oh, here's what we did.

Here's what we talked about. Here's a great note I got.

Here's a note that didn't help me as much.

It's like, okay.

It shaped my understanding

of what that relationship could be like.

So, around two years ago- 2022.

You did Piano Lesson for the first time

on Broadway, on the boards.

Never been on Broadway before.

[John David] Right.

Never done a full run of a play before.

Right. I mean, I didn't get paid for it.

[Malcolm laughing] I think I done some

like in classrooms, or in the park.

But I mean like a full...

Yeah, yeah. No, yeah, yeah.

So what was that like the first day?

So like life and death, brother.

I felt like, all right, if this don't work, it's over.

Everything I've kind of built on, Ballers or whatever,

it don't matter.

This is my real, like, this is my album.

Can he rap? You know what I mean?

Like, he's got the studio albums,

he's got Dr. Dre and everybody producing this stuff.

[Malcolm laughs] That's easy but can you rap?

Do you got these bars?

So I'm not gonna lie, I'll talk about it now.

I was so nervous. I was a wreck.

My publicist knows.

Like, I was telling her all kinds of crazy stuff.

Like, I don't wanna do no...

Bro, I can't do anything.

I don't wanna talk about this. I just gotta...

I can't do it.

Like, you have to do the red carpet

just to say like, welcome to the opening.

I'm like, I can't do none of that.

I couldn't. I'm like you.

Like, I'm locked in. Yeah, and so this negro,

you come to my dressing room, like earpiece,

'cause you were doing a little documentary

and you were like, All right, big dog, this is it.

[Malcolm laughing] I'm like, first of all,

how'd you get past security and all this?

You got it, brother. Oh my gosh.

And for some reason, it made me calm,

but it made me even more nervous.

Just like, oh my God.

I don't like opening night. I ain't gonna lie.

I'm not a fan of opening nights, man.

But I was extremely terrified. I was.

And I got through it. It was all good.

But, you know, again, like I was saying before,

if I can get through it, if I can stand and survive this,

I'm gonna act the rest of my life, so.

But yeah. But what- And you got through it.

I got through it. You survived.

I got through it. And I feel like,

with a work like August Wilson's, any of his work,

there's so much density

that there's a lot to be mined and discovered in the work.

And I know, as I've heard people say,

I've never had this experience, because I'm not an actor,

but when you go through a run of a play

that you're constantly discovering stuff as you go.

What does that practically look like to you?

Like, what does that mean exactly?

Literally every show of like, Agh!

That line, I said that line weird.

Oh, I gotta laugh there

and I didn't even realize I got a laugh there.

And oh, I realize when you listen a certain way,

or if Sam says a certain thing a certain way,

you discover, oh, that's what that means.

You know, because he, like you said the, the density,

and he writes spherically in my opinion,

he's like, it's so loaded,

you will always discover something,

under the level, under the surface,

as long as you keep digging,

and just keep staying open to it.

So it would look like, after a line I deliver

or after a show, I figured something out.

I'm like, I think I got something.

And then you might fall flat on your face

on the next show. But then you carry that

to the next one. Then you carry that

to the next. Or like, if you feel like you got something,

you can't necessarily take it

or try to chase that performance,

'cause you'll fall flat.

And maybe sometimes when we're talking about sports,

a game, like, I can't play just like that.

The game's gonna be different so you gotta be open to it.

Did you ever get into what I would think

is probably a bad rhythm of chasing audience reaction

like off the lot? You can't help it.

Like, I understand what comedians...

Like, the buzz of a comedian, like being a comedian.

When you get a, there's nothing,

I don't know if there's anything like getting a laugh

up front of a thousand-plus people.

Like there was this line I would deliver,

like, when I'm yelling at my sister,

like, We wait till the people get up.

He's like about to have an aneurysm.

Yeah. And that would get...

Like, they would have to pause sometimes

to let the laughs clear.

And it was just...

That feeling's indescribable.

But you can't chase it. You know what I'm saying?

'Cause then you don't get- Because then it'll fall flat

and then you might mess up the rest of your, you know?

Is there a dramatic version of that? Is there like a...

Well, I thought it was in the movie, man.

[John David laughs] I'm saying on stage.

I'm saying on stage. On stage?

Because in film, I think it's the opposite.

Yeah. I didn't do it like that

in the movie. Totally different

and I loved how you did it in the movie.

Yeah, thank you. Totally different.

And it sat in the movie.

Yeah. When did you discover August and what did it mean?

From then til now, I guess. What did it mean? [laughs]

Yeah, what did it mean? I was trying to figure out-

The first time you picked up a basketball,

what did it mean? What did it mean?

It's me and the ball.

First time I really read August Wilson,

was in at AFI, when I was in film school.

We had a exercise where you have to direct a scene

from a previous work, and they were mostly plays.

The teacher like... I dunno if it was actually like this,

or if it's just in my memory.

It feels like a movie,

like teacher dumps out all the classics.

Well, we on the show right now,

so this is what happened. Yeah. This is what happened.

Teacher comes in and dumps out like all the classics

on the table and everybody's like

picking through all these works, you know?

And August Wilson was the only black writer on that table.

So I was like, okay, I know August-

What it is. Yeah, I know August,

and I'ma jump in that.

Like, I've just heard, you know...

You hear about his name for so long.

Like, it's just in your life in that way.

But I never really read him. I wasn't super familiar.

So I was like, let me just do a scene from this.

I know there's gonna be black people in there,

and I'm sure it's good.

And it was a scene from Fences.

Hmm.

And it was really good.

[John David laughs]

It was really, really good.

And in this one scene, it was when Rose and Troy

have like, one of their big arguments,

and she has that monologue.

Standing in the same place.

Yeah. I was standing with you, 16 years.

So, I started breaking down that scene,

breaking down the characters, the two characters,

and like who they are as people.

And with August, when you start digging into it,

even more comes up. Mm-hmm.

It's like more and more and more comes up.

And you think that you're getting close

to the bottom of understanding, and you're like, wait,

this story's even richer and deeper than I thought.

So that was the first time I really started understanding.

But not from a theater perspective.

It was from filmmaking. It was from like,

a filmmaking perspective. Yeah.

Like, I'm gonna shoot a movie.

Yeah, yeah. A scene of a movie,

but I need to know who the character is.

Mm-hmm. So it's interesting.

In a way, you came up on August Wilson

through the lens of film.

Like, you know, most or some are like through the stage.

Yeah, and I think that that's why-

It's cool. Doing this movie,

I felt really secure about it,

because I didn't really have another way in.

You know what I mean? That's just what you-

It's just what I knew.

It wasn't even super complicated. It was just what I knew.

I know, you'd be like, after I went to play some shows,

you're like, That was great, man.

I'm like, I don't really- I don't know. Yeah.

I don't know how to give...

Just a black thing I guess. Yeah.

It's not my meat yet. Like, I don't know that world.

I didn't study it. It's like, I don't know it in that way.

I just know characters and story in this language.

Tell your mama to tell you about that piano.

You feel that?

[foreboding music] That's your family,

your blood.

Now you ask her how them pictures got on there.

If she don't tell you, I'll tell you.

When I was hearing you talk about that feeling

of wanting to prove yourself,

I related to that so much,

because in the journey it was like...

When you're trying to get a movie made,

you go around and you...

I came to you with the books of like, images and stories,

and my take on what I wanted it to be.

But then when you get there and you have to shoot it,

now you have to actually do all those things

that you said you were gonna do.

And it's kind of scary. Mm-hmm.

It's really, really, really scary.

But, I knew having you, Danielle, Sam,

all these people who, some of 'em...

Everybody in the cast

had some experience with August Wilson to varying degrees.

You know, you've read his monologues,

you've read his plays, some of you have acted in 'em,

some of you acted in the exact play that we were doing

but there was always love and reverence

for August and for each other.

And I think that that kind of buoyed everybody,

and myself as well. = Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Well, it's interesting, 'cause like,

I'm thinking about what you're saying, the parallels here.

'Cause with all the rehearsal, we had a run of previews.

And yet that's what like, all right.

And I thought during the previews, All right,

I'm not gonna be too nervous.

It's like we're running already.

But for some reason, opening night, it's just the thing.

And I'm thinking about you though,

the parallel I'm trying to make is, you know,

you have the conception and all that,

you got the green light,

and then you get your department heads and you talk,

and you have your team meetings,

and then you light the candle, we got our first table read,

and here we go.

So you're prepared, you know you're ready,

but yet, for some reason, that first day was like...

It just kind of like- It's just like-

And that's so interesting.

They're like, Okay, all right, let's roll sound.

You're like, Wait, what are we doing?

[both laughing]

What's about to happen right now?

Is that a camera? Yeah, I'm like,

what are we, huh?

Yeah. Yeah.

That's so crazy. But then you get through it

and then one day- But you had to calm me down.

That first day, I'm like, Don't go! Don't go!

Yeah. I was hype.

And you came through like, Just calm down.

Calm down. [Malcolm laughing]

So I couldn't tell if you were like...

Maybe you were just, 'cause I was just...

I was a little nervous and hype too.

You know? We all were, you know?

And we all wanted to do well.

Yeah, that's it.

Everybody wanted to just do well,

and that was a sign of commitment.

But speaking too, of like veterans.

I mean, between Mr. Potts and Sam Jackson

talking about legacy, and how, you know,

he knew August Wilson.

And he developed, you know, he invented the role

of Boy Willie. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I think that was so valuable

to have them, their presence,

their constant, immediate stay

on stage- In the room.

Was just incredible.

And I think that was really beneficial to our growth

and our being able to get up to speed as quickly as-

And their chemistry together too.

Mm-hmm. Michael Potts

is such a legendary actor, as is Samuel Jackson.

Dare I say, like, is he underrated?

Like, like people aren't really

giving him the flowers he deserves, right?

Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of crazy.

Like, he's one of the greats,

in my opinion, man. He is one of the greats.

Michael Potts is one of the greats.

And seeing their comradery

and the respect that they had for each other,

I feel like in some ways made all of us aspire to that too.

There was no competition.

It was two vets being vets, knowing what they were doing,

and we were all...

Like, okay, yeah, we follow that lead.

Right. Yeah. You know?

We're not in competition with one another.

We're trying to build this thing up together.

And then you're casting Danielle?

Like, I don't know.

What did you see?

Station Eleven.

Station Eleven was a show she did.

It was Hiram or I worked on- Oh yeah, yeah. Okay.

And she just had

this really grounded strength to her

and a maturity.

And she was very regal, but still like of the earth,

and she kind of tied all these contradictions together

in a really wonderful way.

And when I was thinking about Bernice and Boy Willie,

it's a brother-and-sister story,

and I'm a younger brother and I have an older sister.

And that relationship doesn't get talked about enough.

Like older sisters make younger brothers cool.

[John David laughs] They can tell you what to read

and what to watch, and like what to wear, all these things,

but that dynamic is...

They protect you in a way, you know?

They experience the world first,

and they help guide you through it.

And they can free up space for you,

and make space for you to be whatever you want to be.

And rambunctious and funny and weird.

And any idiosyncrasy that you have, you can chase,

because you have an older sister there to keep you in line.

And that was something that I wanted to come through

in the dynamic of Boy Willie and Bernice.

Because Boy Willie has this brashness to him.

And I think it's totally set up by the fact

that he's a younger brother.

He has somebody that was holding room for him

holding space for him.

And Danielle had such a strength in that,

and like an understanding of the world

that she could protect you and make space for you,

and make you not worry about certain problems.

You didn't have that caution when you were young,

because somebody else was always looking out for you.

And that was a dynamic

that I really wanted to see you two play out.

And bringing her in, I told you,

I called you right after I spoke to her for the first time,

and I was like, I can't wait for you to meet her.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I can't wait.

Because the way she was thinking about it, intellectually,

her intuition, she was so intuition-based

that I just couldn't wait for it to see how y'all-

For the dynamic.

Yeah. Yeah. No, it was fire.

Yeah. Incredible. It was electric.

There's a whole process that goes into making a film

and adapting a play like this.

I'm assuming you have some grand ideas that got cut.

Yeah. Like, I mean,

you don't have to name any names or whatever,

but like, do you feel comfortable

talking about some of that stuff or no?

You know what?

There's stuff- [John David laughing]

Making a movie...

Yeah. Tell us about that, man.

I got an idea. Yeah, nah, we ain't... [laughing]

No, but you know how the creative process is

where it's like, some ideas

aren't totally made to be seen through all the way.

They just get you to the idea

that the movie wants. That works, yeah.

That the movie wants, because ultimately,

you're trying to serve the movie.

Like, as much as I'm like, Oh, I have this idea

that I really liked and wanted to...

If the movie doesn't support it, you gotta-

Bro, you know who you're talking to right?

You talking to an actor. We know all about that.

Hey, Mr. Director or Mrs. Director, I'd like to try-

Yeah, go ahead and try it. It's cool, we got it.

And then we know when y'all come back, we got that one.

Let's try something else.

That's what we- That wasn't your story

on Piano Lesson. Oh, it wasn't?

That wasn't your story, though.

Bro, you brought a lot to it.

You brought a lot to it and I'm grateful,

because you instilled a lot of fearlessness in me

as a director because a project like this,

there's so much reverence, so much legacy,

it's like precious, it's so precious.

And you can be afraid to break it.

Mm-hmm. And I knew...

Intellectually I came in like, Nah, we gonna break it.

You know, we're gonna like, push this thing to the limits.

We're gonna push it all, take it to the edge,

and always honor August Wilson, always honor the work,

but stretch it.

Like, let's find how dextrous

this thing can be. Absolutely. Yeah.

But then when you get there and you're on set-

[both laughing]

So there's ghosts all of a sudden. They're everywhere.

Yes. Ever present.

Ever present. It's scary.

It's scary, it's scary.

But you had such a fearlessness in how you approached it,

and day one, you were just alive and present,

and threw away so much stuff and started over,

started building Boy Willie up from the ground up

after doing the play for six months, you know?

But just totally starting over and saying,

Okay, we're doing something new now.

Doing something else. Yeah. Let's start again.

Which is exciting.

What I hope people take away,

when they watch The Piano Lesson

is in The Piano Lesson,

every character does what they think is right,

what they think is best not only for themselves,

but for others.

I feel like everybody's acting, in their own way, selflessly

for the betterment of the family.

And there's a lot of conflict within that,

but what ties it all together is love.

There's so much love. Right. Yes, yes, yes.

In the middle of it.

And I think that, for a lot of people with their families,

there might be conflict, you might see things differently,

you might think that

the way that you're trying to go about something

is the best way, but as long as there's love there,

then there's opportunity to continue to be together

and that's powerful. [mellow music]

Cupid! [Malcolm laughing]

Okay. There you go.

Pimp theory.

Well said, sir. Thank you.

Good times.

[mellow music]