“Who Am I When I’m Not Working?”: Angelina Jolie, Demi Moore, Zendaya and the Actress Roundtable

It was, as Tilda Swinton would say — gazing across the table one Saturday afternoon in November at the Soho House’s Luckman Club in West Hollywood — a room of “scorching glamour.” Amid the heat of all that charisma, there were three cute canines sniffing around: Zendaya’s mini black schnauzer, Noon; Demi Moore’s micro chihuahua, Pilaf; and Mikey Madison’s chihuahua puppy, Jam. The occasion for the gathering of Oscar frontrunners and the dogs who love them was THR’s annual Actress Roundtable, which this year convened Angelina Jolie (Maria), Zoe Saldaña (Emilia Pérez), Madison (Anora), Moore (The Substance), Swinton (The Room Next Door) and Zendaya (Dune: Part Two and Challengers) for a conversation on surviving and thriving in modern Hollywood. “A lot of women in the past didn’t have this table,” Jolie pointed out of the sometimes lonely life of being a woman in the arts. “They didn’t have community in this way.”

Who here has ever signed on for a role that you were really excited about and then gone home and thought, “What have I just done?”

ZOE SALDAÑA More often than not. The series that I’m doing right now, Lioness, is a show that’s very dialogue heavy. I wanted to challenge myself and address my dyslexia and my anxiety by taking on a character who was really commanding with a lot of dialogue. The moment I said yes, I went home and looked at my partner and was like, “I don’t think I can do this.” Then, obviously, the next day was just, roll your sleeves up and create all the tools that you need to get there.

TILDA SWINTON The second film that I made, I was in every shot of it. I remember going home after one night’s shooting and lying in the bath and trying to plan how I would break into the British Film Institute, which was making the film, to seize the dailies and destroy them. I knew Rathbone Place, which is the street in London. I was figuring there’d be a night watchman. What could I do to distract him? I was really going down that line. I just couldn’t imagine that any film where I was going to be in every frame was going to be anything other than unbearable. Whenever I see a film that I’m in, for the first few times I see it, my face is kind of fuzzed out, like, on those police videos, you know? And then slowly, like the third screening, I’ll go, “Oh yeah, it’s you.” Does anybody relate to that?

DEMI MOORE The first few times watching it through, it’s always a little bit of the dissecting of what you’ve done, what you could have done — and then step back and be able to really take in the whole, let go of your ego attachment to what other people think. But even now, can you watch yourself? I cannot watch myself.

ANGELINA JOLIE I really have trouble watching myself, too. There are many films I’ve never seen. I can never watch dailies. 

SWINTON There are films you haven’t seen? Wow. That must be very tantalizing. I’d be tempted.

JOLIE No, because I … I think we all probably have discomfort with the presentation of self. As much as I love the work, I don’t want to think about what I look or sound like or else I don’t know if I’d be as free. Once it’s over, I do want an audience to connect, but there’s nothing I can do.

ZENDAYA I’m a very self-conscious person. Everything I do, I’m very self-critical. And I find that being on a set is one of the few places that I don’t judge myself. I can just be super free. Because I’m like, “Wait, it’s not me.” So I don’t mind watching myself. I don’t actually ever get weird about it until I go, “Oh, people are going to see this.” Once it’s time to promote something, I’m like, “Oh, now I’m self-conscious about the work that I just made.” But up until this point, I was just in my little bubble of creative freedom. It’s not until you realize, “This won’t belong to just me forever,” that my head starts going. 

MOORE That’s a very evolved place to be. I’m going to just take that little gem. 

SWINTON But what you are speaking to is when you look at yourself on a monitor, it’s just not you, it’s not yours because it is the light. It’s the makeup. It’s the costume. It’s the design. I remember once, years and years ago, the second film when I was in every frame, I remember in week 10 thinking, “I want a little bit of praise. Where am I going to get it from?” But I was too proud to ask anybody for it. I thought, “I know what I’ll do. I’ll ask the editor, I’ll ask him which is his favorite shot in the movie so far, because I know I’m in 99 percent of it, so surely.” And so I went to the editor and said, “What’s your favorite shot?” He said, “Oh, that’s really hard. Hmm.” He finally said, “Yeah, I think I’ve got it. It’s this close-up of you. I don’t know how he did it.” And it was genius. It cured me in that moment. I thought, “Yeah, how did the cinematographer do that? How did the cinematographer frame it and light it?” Correct. Not actually much to do with me at all. So I never asked for any praise ever again. And that’s what you are speaking to. Because you look in the monitor and you go, “Well done, everybody.” You are in there somewhere, but it’s not just you.

ZENDAYA Absolutely, you truly are an amalgamation of all these genius people’s ideas. That’s what we were just talking about (gestures at Jolie) with directing, because I would love to direct one day and you’ve been able to do it — and in a beautiful way. Something that makes me so nervous is [directing], and [Jolie, before] was like, “But there are people to help you.” There are these gorgeous teams of people that we get to work with that create just as much as we do, the characters that we play. 

Mikey, when I think about having a lack of self-consciousness on set, I think about the opening scene in Anora where you’re in this nightclub, and as I understand it, there was not a lot of direction in the script. You were just told to go up and approach potential customers. What was that like? 

MIKEY MADISON All of that is improvised. [Director] Sean [Baker] created an entirely live set. So there’s music blasting, a DJ playing. There’s my co-workers all over the club, men everywhere. And Sean shot it on a long lens. He was in the corner of the club, and he would just follow me around picking up men, talking to my co-workers, trying to get guys to come to the back room and get a dance with me. There was a lot of pressure on me to get to a place where I completely understood everything about my character and also the dynamics between a dancer and a client. So I did a lot of research going into that, shadowing dancers at clubs, talking to consultants. We shot three rolls of film, 30 minutes straight of that and then whittled it down to a couple minutes of the film, which is the introduction into Ani and who she is.

What was the most useful thing that a dancer told you about what that life was like? 

MADISON Oh my God, everything. Just understanding how psychological of a job it is to be a sex worker. It’s not only physically demanding, but it’s mentally demanding as well, because you’re having to walk up to someone and immediately try to connect with them. And then physically, you’re on your feet all day, dancing in these really tall stilettos. Just understanding the stamina that comes with that. Being able to get to know the sex work community has been one of the most impactful things that’s ever happened to me. I have so much respect for what they do. Ani would’ve been a completely different character if I hadn’t done any of that preparation.

MOORE Did you have a different idea of who they were before you had a chance to really get to know them as people? 

MADISON Yeah. The version of my character you see in the club or when she’s with clients, it’s a performance. It’s this sexualized version of herself. She’s creating a face to meet each of the faces that she meets. And I do think that me being an actress, I was able to recognize what that is and understand, you have to be a great listener to be a dancer.

Zoe, what was it like for you to get back to dance in Emilia Pérez, which is how you began in this industry?

SALDAÑA It was a true gift. I was given the opportunity to reconnect with parts of me that unconsciously I just left behind. As a New Yorker, you’re born with jazz hands, and then you spend your whole life un-jazzing your hands. I remember being a child and walking by Lincoln Center and [my grandmother] would go, “Look, look, look,” while she was smoking her cigarette, like, “One day, one day you’re going to be there.” And I remember thinking like, “What is she saying?” And then it’s very beautiful when things come full circle. But I do believe that you have to find a way to manifest them.

How exactly did you manifest this?

SALDAÑA By really wanting it. I fell into this pattern of being on autopilot constantly. I was a part of really successful films that became franchises, and I have no regrets. They gave me so much. But they’re very time-consuming. And this is all happening while I’m starting a family. So that desire to grow, to shatter whatever glass ceiling I felt like I was falling under, was growing more and more as the years went by. I wrote a list with my team a couple of years before booking Emilia Pérez. I said, “These are the top five directors that I would love to work with.” Jacques [Audiard] was in the top three. Dancing and singing, that was the icing on the cake. 

Angelina, what did you learn about yourself from singing as Maria Callas?

JOLIE Oh, so much. I had someone in my life say that I couldn’t sing. I didn’t realize how much that had blocked me. I didn’t realize how much I didn’t know my voice. I didn’t understand how much life changes your voice, whether it be childbirth or death, or someone you love, or sickness or whatever it may be. But we hold things in our body. We change the way we are. And somewhere along the way ­— I’m 49 years old — I lost my voice. So it was such a gift to have these seven months [of training], to have someone hold my hand and help me take a deep breath and try to make sound again. If you haven’t tried to sing opera, I recommend it to everyone, because it’s the only thing I’ve ever done where you use your full physical body, your full vocal, and your full emotion. And we, especially as women, are very rarely allowed, asked, encouraged to give with our full power. We are adjusting to the room, to our children, to society. Something along the way forms us, and we don’t bust out with everything. Maria Callas is one of us. She was a woman and spent a lot of time in her process alone. Which is why this is so lovely, sitting here, thinking of her and realizing she didn’t have this table. A lot of women in the past didn’t have this table. There weren’t as many women doing certain things, and they didn’t have community in this way. I was surprised when I got here today. So many of us have been aware of each other. We’ve never met. It’s quite strange.

MOORE We don’t have many opportunities to connect in the form of community and reflect as artists. It can be a bit of an isolating experience. 

SALDAÑA You are encouraged to be isolated, right? It used to be that notion that you needed to always stay hyper-focused on your journey and not seek support. Or not lend support.

SWINTON It’s such a mirage, because it’s not real. I mean, we all know how important our women friends are to us. It’s everything. Men give the impression that they don’t have the same kind of collective feel together. That’s their affair. And they have to figure it out, if it’s true. It’s probably not true, but there is a strange kind of myth around it. But this is a beautiful table, the glamour at this table ­— except for me. But this must be encouraged, to just shoot the breeze as women. And also this whole idea that women don’t make movies. I mean, as we all know, women have been making films as directors since the very beginning of cinema. Lois Weber was the very first director in 1904 or something. That’s the reality. But there’s a strange sort of mesmerism around it. We’re all supposed to forget it. And also, we’re all supposed to be pitched against each other.

MOORE That’s the thing ­— it isn’t a competition. That’s been the illusion, versus when one rises, we all rise. And that when we walk the path, not alone, we also expand exponentially.

SWINTON The whole idea that there’s only room for one may suit men better, or the society of men better, but I don’t think it suits women. I think we know how to do this. This is what we do. Yes. You know, we sit around tables and we chat and we support each other, and we witness each other.

Demi, The Substance is about the way women criticize our bodies. What drew you to that? 

MOORE The script was such an interesting, out-of-the-box read, the way in which it was exploring the issue of aging. The thing that grabbed me was the exploration of the violence we can have against ourselves, that way in which we can dissect and criticize. I have found, at least in my own experience in life, that it’s really not what anyone else has ever done to me. The impact has always been on what I do to myself, internalized.

SWINTON The going-out scene [as the character, a middle-aged woman, scrutinizing herself]. Oh my Lord. 

SALDAÑA It was such an intimate and raw portrayal of what we can do to ourselves, how we commit self-harm on a daily basis, sometimes without even touching our bodies. Even in the way that you were looking at yourself, you were so self-critical. And I just, I felt it. 

MOORE The other thing as an actor that I’ve never explored is, my scenes were almost all alone. And I have no dialogue. So everything was the kind of odd, intimate moments we have with ourselves, where we are often naked, looking, dissecting, thinking. It was a really interesting challenge to create a full life for her, because I didn’t have someone else to feed off of. It was also very technical. A lot of times the technical aspects take priority over the sensitivity of an actor’s process. But it was so relatable. It was an important message that needed to come across for us to all start to reevaluate how we’re holding ourselves. I’ve had a lot of conversations, having three daughters. My middle daughter said at one point, “I want to quit wasting time focusing on all that I’m not, when I could be celebrating all that I am.” First of all, I said, “Maybe I’ve done a good job,” but also, that is it. 

If women do this to ourselves, how do we break out of it?

MOORE It’s ultimately about self-acceptance. It’s about appreciating who we are, as we are right now. That involves how we evolve. It isn’t the same reflection in the mirror. As one woman said, she’s just more loosely wrapped. Would I trade being more “tightly wrapped” for the wisdom that I’ve gained and who I’ve become as a woman today? I don’t think I would — at the same time, appreciating all of the different parts of me that have brought me to where I am today, embracing the shadow sides. When we can look at our triumphs that have come through our obstacles, our failures, we can see them as an opportunity for growth and a win.

Zendaya, we’re used to seeing you play a kid, a teenager. In Challengers, for a good portion of the movie, you’re playing a grown woman. How was that different for you? 

ZENDAYA For so long I was playing a teenager, way past when I was one. Being able to play Rue [on HBO’s Euphoria] has been one of the greatest gifts of my life. But there comes a time where you’ve got to start playing your own age and beyond. And it was a scary thing. Challengers was my first time in a leading lady role and being a part of the producing aspect. It was all very exciting and also daunting. But when you read certain characters, you’re like, “I just can’t pass up the opportunity to play this woman.” She was refreshing to me. She doesn’t apologize for her need for control as her life is falling apart or for vicariously having to live through other people. It spoke to me because I love my job so much. I’m so grateful that I get to do this for a living. And I think, “What if it was all taken away?” Her true love was tennis. And it gets snatched from her so quickly. She doesn’t know who she is anymore without this thing. And that’s something in my own life — I’ve been working since I was a kid, and I was like, “Wait, who am I when I’m not working? Do I have a life? What do I even like to do? What are my hobbies? Like, who is Zendaya outside of this?”

SALDAÑA One thing in your character that resonated with me, it’s emotions that we suppress that we never like to admit that we feel. Your character felt so much jealousy that these men, in her mind, were so undeserving of this gift, of this talent. It was just amazing to see a woman be equal to a man when it comes to aptitude, talent, wit. Her competition wasn’t other women. It was the partners in her life. 

ZENDAYA Her boys. And it was exploring parts of a life that I haven’t lived yet, having kids or getting married. I also think back to a bigger conversation of not ever allowing women the space to grieve. She just immediately pivots and she’s like, “OK, new plan.” Allowing ourselves moments to be a person. We don’t have to hold it all together.

SWINTON That’s our humanness. It’s about a relationship with success. The whole idea of success being the holy grail, that you are going for whatever that means. For a sports person, it means something very, very clear. And everything else takes second or third or fourth place. Where does the living happen? It’s easier for us as artists, because we need our lives. Otherwise, we can’t make our work. 

MOORE It’s also that question of identity. Like, “Who am I without?” Because what we do isn’t actually who we are. But that takes time to find within yourself. The early part of life, you’re just striving to see what you can do. If you find enough of it, it’s then having to separate and live and have more of a balance in your existence. And when you’ve lived long enough, you’ve made some mistakes. You’ve had some failures and survived them. That’s the most amazing teaching tool. Survival. And then it gets better and better and better, as we know. 

So, do you feel like you’ve figured out what your hobbies are and who you are when you’re not working? 

ZENDAYA Next question. (Laughs.) It’s a thing that I’m figuring out. What other than work brings me joy? For me, it’s been about trying new things, as stupid as it sounds, like pottery or anything with your hands. I can make a good scone now, you know? It’s just trying to discover what my life is outside of the presentation of who I am. 

SWINTON Well, you’ve worked from when you were a child, which most of us have not had that experience. When did you start working, Mikey? 

MADISON I was about 16, almost 16.

SWINTON Pretty young still, isn’t it? I take my hat off to both of you. It’s quite an achievement to work as young people. It’s hard enough when you are older. The rest of us, we were climbing trees and not making any money.

ZENDAYA I have a complicated relationship with the idea of child acting because I’ve seen it be detrimental to people. I’m so grateful that this is how it turned out. I wouldn’t change it, but there are things that I wish I lived out privately, you know? Because you’re figuring out who you are in front of the world. And you’re like, “I’m trying to do this right. I want to make everyone happy, but I don’t really know who I am yet. I have no idea what I’m doing.” 

SWINTON I’m excited for you finding your fabulous life.

ZENDAYA Thank you. Pottery and scones. But I appreciate being able to have moments like this, because I feel like at least now the connections are made. I can reach out and ask questions, because all of you have such experience and that’s so valuable. Often I feel too nervous to reach out and be like, “Hey, can I get some advice?”

MOORE In truth, it’s a real gift to feel like there’s any kind of experience, strength and hope that you have, that you could impart to someone. That actually is enriching. So reach out. 

ZENDAYA Oh, I will. I’m getting everybody’s contact information after this.

SWINTON I’ll help you set up the bakery.

MOORE And I can help you with the pottery.

ZENDAYA (Laughs.) I just got that. That’s so funny. We actually did that in Euphoria. We reenacted [the pottery scene in Ghost]. 

MOORE Oh, you did? Oh my God. Actually, I was a disaster with the pottery. Mine literally looked like kindergartner pots.

SWINTON Oh my God, Demi, Ghost, Ghost! 

SALDAÑA I just got it, too.

Tilda, Pedro Almodóvar works fast. He’s a one or two takes kind of guy. In The Room Next Door, you have some long monologues. Were you doing things in one or two takes or did you ask him for more?

SWINTON Both. There was begging. But he seems to know what he wants. And I was nervous about that. I was nervous that he was going too fast for us to have an opportunity to squeeze the orange every which way, which I love to do. I worked with David Fincher, who, you know, the legend is that he’ll go a hundred takes. And I happen to love that, too. Because then you know you’ve done it. It’s all there.

Does anyone here ever ask for another take?

MADISON Definitely. On [Anora], there would be times where we’d be stealing shots. We’d bring this film camera into restaurants, clubs, to a pool hall, just filming on the street and trying to steal things. And sometimes you don’t feel like you got it. So it’s like, “Let’s just go in one more time,” but you can’t. And then obviously our film being such a small budget, there were days where we’re just jam-packing scenes, trying to get things done. And I’m like, “Wait, I just need something more.” But watching it back, what we did end up getting was just right in the moment, because the film is so hectic and frenetic. As an actress, you’re trying to make sure that you got it. And it’s not possible. There’s no such thing. 

SWINTON It’s not possible. For me, anyway, this is possibly the most difficult part of the work, letting things go, moving on and having the discipline to just go, “Do you know what? I didn’t think I got it, but getting it is impossible. And what do I know, anyway?” Because very often, we think we got it. And you can speak to this, Angelina, as a director, that the performer thinks it’s been nailed. But actually, that’s the overshot one. And the one that felt a little rickety and there was some kind of weird energy around it, that’s the golden thing. But you can’t necessarily feel that inside. That’s why a director can say, “Trust me, we got it. We’re moving on.” And you have to go, “OK, I trust you.” It’s a feat of faith. 

Angelina, how does having directed shape the way you work as an actor?

JOLIE I was always an actress that loved the crew and understood I was a piece of a whole. But after being a director, you are much more aware of all the pieces and all the needs, and you are very conscious that an actor is important, but a piece. I found casting very interesting, as an actor. You may be looking for something, it’s not some perfect presentation or some perfect reading. It’s someone who has something behind those eyes, someone who’s a little messy, someone who’s a little brave. A lot of what makes an interesting actor is an interesting person. The actors, I push them and I root for them.

Demi, in The Substance, you don all these prosthetics and become this creature. How was the process of putting all that on and acting through it?

MOORE It’s not like you have practice time with everything on. You’re finding it, in some respects, on the day. The time for me in the chair was anywhere from six to nine and a half hours, which is a lot. But — and you also must know this, too, Zoe — it’s a much easier read on paper than the physical act of being in there. I also think the time in the chair is helpful if you can get very still, very Zen. It was a slow progression over that time. You can’t really eat or drink because it’s so delicate. Things will fall apart. And probably the most challenging is having somebody touch you constantly all the time. 

SWINTON But taking it off is the really hard part, isn’t it? 

SALDAÑA No, it’s actually much quicker. You open a bottle of wine, put Sam Cooke on. 

MOORE I will say, [The Substance] director Coralie [Fargeat] loved to do many, many takes. The scene of wiping the makeup off my face, each section was 15 takes at least. And I could have used a few less. 

Zendaya, Dune: Part Two is this epic sci-fi movie, but it’s built upon a romance. How did you figure out how you were going to flirt in space? 

ZENDAYA There was one scene that we could only shoot for like an hour a day, because of the sun. So you’re like, “OK, we were here yesterday, but how do we get back into that, the tenderness and finding these moments?” In the beginning, Denis [Villeneuve] would say, “I’m going to do a glances pass. Just look at each other from across the room.” I find that there is so much you can do without words. Just a glance between the two of them built this love story and made you believe it. I just felt very lucky to be a part of it. From the beginning, I was just like, “I’ll play a tree, the sand worm. What do you need? This is just so cool. I just want to be there.”

How much does what’s going on geopolitically in the world affect your choice of projects? 

SALDAÑA It’s totally separate. Very early on in my career, I felt a couple of times at these self-made crossroads where, being a daughter of immigrants and being Latina in America, you carry this responsibility to represent your community. And I stopped that. I made that choice. I hoped it would help my community, by me following my heart and growing as an artist, as opposed to trying to take on these social causes. Because I would feel really overwhelmed. And when you do connect with people from your community, then you’re able to look at them and say, “Follow your heart.” That’s how you are going to help your community, by helping yourself.

Tilda, I want to end by sharing something you said in an interview. You were talking about your friendship with Almodóvar. You said you met at a Hollywood party where you bonded over feeling like outsiders, that you were “both shy and tickled pink and pinching ourselves, but not confident enough to step in and talk to, say, Angelina Jolie.”

SWINTON She was there. We had Liza Minnelli over here and we had Sacha Baron Cohen over there and Angie was there. And both Pedro and I were scorched with the glamour of it. We just couldn’t believe that we were present.

JOLIE And I was probably ­— because I never go out — really alone and not sure anybody wanted to talk to me. And probably I would’ve been so happy had they said hello.

SWINTON And this is the truth of human animals: We’re all shy. 

This story appeared in the Jan. 3 issue of The Hollywood Reporter magazine. Click here to subscribe.