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Moneyweb now on the money changing with Wayne Abramson, CEO ATM solutions. Wayne appreciate the time and one of those old school folks who's always got some cash in my wallet. But I'm really surprised by doctor and you, you put out a note talking your own recent doctor. Sacristans use cash. 87% of Syrians are still using cash for some if not all of their payments. I mean it, it has a significant role to continue playing in our economy. Yes, good morning, Simon and thanks for having me on the show. As you say, some interesting facts to come out of the recent solar payment study. As far as consumer behaviour is concerned that 87% of South Africans still use cash as the primary payment choice and cash makes up around 56% of payment volumes, although represents 21% of overall payments valued And yeah, debit cards have the majority in terms of value which talks to a higher. Basket stars on card, which one would expect and as many as 94% of South Africans draw cash monthly, with a third withdrawing all the deposited funds at once. And over half the population access cash at ATM. So S Africans still rely heavily on cash. Historically, cash growth has largely followed GDP growth, although that changed somewhat following COVID. We're cash demands declined marginally, but cash is still. Very widely used and for many good reasons. Cash is trusted by for the player and the recipient. It's widely accepted, it's cheap to use, privates support financial inclusion for those who don't have access to digital services and it's resilient when digital systems go down, et cetera. So it's the end of Cashnet. The answer is no. I take your point in that and particularly, I mean, the end of cash and yeah, not, not at all. I mean, we're seeing a rise in, in, in, in, in, in fintech. And, and multiple payment different solutions, but it it, they, they often cases lack that elegance of a, you know, an easy payment of cash. And part of the challenge of cash, perhaps one of the challenges it has is it's not cheap. Drawing from an ATM in many cases can be inexpensive process or you have to simply get to a, an ATM. I'm thinking of someone in a, in a rural area with perhaps a state pension. It's that excess and cost that is perhaps one of the, the hindrance in the cash payment space. Yeah. So I think this is where, you know, independent operators like ourselves have an important part to play. You know, you might have seen in recent videos at the number of bank ATMs has in fact reduced by 4000 or so over the last few years, as well as many bank branches. But independence cap payments companies such as ATM Solutions, which consumers will know as Cash Express are stepping up to fill the gap, ensuring that cash remains within reach for all, including the under underserved. We were mandated by the *** as an independent clearing system participant last year. Which allows us direct access into the national payment system and which significantly enhances our ability to draft financial inclusion more broadly without having to work via bank or or a third party. As far as the cost of accessing cash is concerned, cash withdrawals have actually become more affordable in many instances with some of the biggest banks no longer charging their clients access which network fee. So customers aren't paying extra in certain instances to withdraw from other ATMs, including our own. So consumer education is important. You know, there is a disconnect between perceptions of ATM withdrawal costs, costs versus a reality of who levies fees, which in many cases is actually your own bank trying to keep you within its own ecosystem. So this ultimately drives consumer choice. You know, our goal is to power consumers with the tools they need to transact in the way that best suits them, whether it's through cash, digital platforms or a combination of both. So that's particularly important in the underserved areas. We might be at any point of presence in an underserved area and without their consumers would have to take a taxi to travel, taxes, cash, which obviously becomes more costly. And that's an important point, an important role that that that you play. I mean, I often I will pull up to a petrol station here in Johannesburg, Rosebank and see ATMs from three or four different banks. And I, I just scratched my head. I mean, that can't be efficient in, in, in the more rural areas. It's absolutely not. And, and, and no one bank's going to go in. Hence an independent such as yourself sort of souls for that problem. Yes, I think that's that's absolutely right. Some we leave it there. That's when Everton he's CEO ATM solutions. Appreciate the early morning time. They've set for today. We're chatting with Dermatitis Tillary from RMB yesterday. We're talking the US jobs data.