Can democracy be learned? Why error culture and experimentation are important for democratic competence

For our ConsciousU newsletter, we conduct a monthly interview. You can watch the complete video interview here (ca. 30 mins in German).

When there’s a culture of discussion, of exchange, at different ages, then this encourages children to grow and become part of a democratic process.

Nina Downer is a psychological consultant. She campaigns against adultism and is an advocate for the equality of people of all ages and the right to educational self-determination. She is also a member of the editorial team of "die freilerner - Zeitschrift für selbstbestimmtes leben und lernen" (Self-learner - magazine for self-directed learning and living). She lives with her husband and three sons in Panama, her husband's home country, and has been accompanying her own children on their self-directed educational path for over 10 years. 

What is adultism and how does it affect society?

Adultism is discrimination against young people because of their age. It’s probably the most widespread form of discrimination worldwide. It’s based on the assumption that children and young people have less to say, that they are less intelligent or less valuable. If you take a closer look, you can see that this is a widespread social assumption that impacts various areas. 

How much do we include children in urban planning, for example? Sometimes it's simple things, such as the fact that the doors at the supermarket won't open if you're not a certain height. Or very practical things in life where children are simply not taken into account, which of course limits their independence. But it’s also reflected in language. How do we talk about and with young people? The term "underage people", for example, could already be seen as derogatory. 

Adultism is based on the assumption that children are less intelligent, that children need others to instruct them.

What are the effects of the fact that adultism is so prevalent in our society? 

I think it does a lot to young people's self-esteem. It's currently very common for more and more people to work with their inner child or their inner parts, many of which are painful experiences from when they were children. Then you go inwards and realise "Wow, 30, 40, 50 years later this is still affecting me!" Luckily, we’ve now reached a point where physical violence towards children has decreased significantly compared to previous decades, even if it has sadly not yet completely disappeared. But the violence is still there, albeit on other levels - psychologically, mentally, emotionally.

What kind of structures, value systems and assumptions is adultism based on? 

On the assumption that children are less intelligent, that children need others to instruct them. Of course, children are not small adults. They are still in a completely different stage of development and it’s of course important for children that adults are there for them. But the assumption that children always need instructions on which direction to take is problematic. 

We learn when we have the chance to make mistakes without being punished.

What could an environment look like in which young people can really develop and learn optimally? What is the alternative? 

A very important component is trusting in children. In other words, ensuring that children have spaces where they can experience self-efficacy and try things out. Non-judgmental spaces are very important for this. You can't experiment if you’re constantly being judged. How we deal with mistakes must change: making a mistake is not a bad thing, but a learning experience. We learn when we have the opportunity to make mistakes without being punished. There are also various studies that show that if you don't sort children according to age, but create mixed-age spaces, this has many positive effects.

How does our interaction with children and young people affect their later lives and therefore perhaps also their later careers or professional lives? 

I think it's this fear-based attitude, the fact that we have learnt to always be judged from the outside – this is what inhibits personal initiative. It also has to do with the definition of success. It's always about getting good grades, being good, being praised. We get children to always think about the future. You're not learning for school, you're learning for life. You're doing it now so that you can get good grades, so that you can go to university, so that you can get a good job, so that you can earn a lot. And that's success. But you could also define success in a completely different way. Am I happy? Am I doing something that I enjoy? What is my social impact? What effect am I having?

So we apply norms and standards to our children - they have to function within a capitalist system in which a narrowly defined form of performance is rewarded...

Yes, for example, behind the PISA tests is the OECD, which is an economic body, not an educational organisation. It's no secret that it's simply about economic capitalist goals. 

Politicians would therefore need to consider what kind of human development they actually want to empower. If we want people who are conformist and stay silent, we shouldn't be surprised if they don't become democratically active. To oppose an absolutist or totalitarian regime, I must already have this competence within me.

For sure. You need civil courage. You must be allowed to think in all possible directions, to question things. Not simply: that's the right answer, that's it, perfect marks. The sad thing is that many of these things are already included in the curriculum. It doesn't say ‘we want to raise obedient people’, but it includes terms like democratic education and all these social things. But it's impossible to teach these things as long as the system itself is so authoritarian, in my opinion. As long as you don't set an example yourself and give them the opportunity to try it out in real life, it's an abstract construct that doesn't relate to them at all. If you explain democracy to a 10-year-old, being 18 is still so far away. 

If you are taken seriously as a child, you don't feel the need to discriminate against others or project negative aspects onto them.

What is the societal impact of this? 

If you are fine being yourself, if you know yourself well, if there’s space for your own emotions, if you’re taken seriously as a child, then you don't feel the need to discriminate against others or project negative aspects onto them. 

Fortunately, nowadays we have more and more parents who are really trying to establish democratic structures at home or to be on an equal footing with their children. But we don't yet have that in schools. When children have the opportunity to try out real democratic structures, when what they say, what they want, really counts; when there’s a culture of discussion, of exchange, at different ages, then this encourages children to grow and become part of a democratic process. 

Even though this mindset change has not yet been implemented on a structural level, there are still things we can do right now. What would that be in your opinion?

The most important thing is to reflect on your own mindset. How do I interact with young people and why? I know from my own experience that you can have done a lot of inner work and then you have children or you work with children and you get triggered all the time. I really believe that spaces for free play are very important. Children don't need a busy timetable, they need spaces to try things out, preferably with people of different ages, without supervision. There was a time, for example, when junk playgrounds were popular. That has its place and its value, especially for younger children. From a certain age, you can simply put out building materials and tools. You’ll quickly see how much of a team player children are, how much they can plan. This also promotes intrinsic motivation because the children have a common goal. It's a democratic process. You have to negotiate a lot. How do we do it? Who does what? Oh, it didn't work out. How can we do it instead? 

Imagine you had a wish that could be fulfilled immediately in the world. What would that be? What would you change? 

It would really be necessary to completely reorganise schools. School’s such a prominent part of children's everyday lives. We should make these structures freer and more independent. There are examples of how this can work well. I would very much like all children to have the opportunity to try things out and grow under the loving guidance of adults.