'Faith Conquers The World'

 

His Eminence Cardinal Edward Clancy Roman Catholic Church

 

BRETT KELLY: Cardinal, is there an idea, person or event that has had a profound influence on you?

EDWARD CLANCY: Yes, I would have to say that that would be my dad. He would probably have been the biggest influence in my life in all sorts of ways, not always easy to identify. He was a man, I think, of great wisdom, balanced judgement. He was a very committed and dedicated Catholic but not demonstrative about it. It shows up for example in my decision to become a priest. He never in any way pressured me to become a priest but was always supportive. In that and in many other ways I'd say he probably was the single greatest influence in my life.

Is there a motto, quote or thought that best summarises your approach to life?

As a bishop I have a motto, which of course I chose. It is 'Faith conquers the world'. It is taken actually from the first letter of St. John in the New Testament. Faith conquers the world. I think today we have a big confrontation between faith and what St. John called 'the world'. To him the world means all that is evil in the world. He used the word 'world' in that sense of a secularist world that denies God and the values of the gospel. It is not new, that confrontation between faith and the world, and I think there is a great significance in that saying of St John's, that faith must overcome the world. So that was my chosen motto, and it is one by which I can easily live.

What do you see as the most critical issues for Australia in the next decade?

They tend to show up if you ask what are the worst things about Australia today. I think among the critical issues is the Christian faith, number one. We live in a Christian civilisation; we have inherited a Christian civilisation; it was Christianity that overcame barbarianism in the beginning and established our civilisation, its values, its norms, and they are very much under threat now. Whether or not they survive depends on whether or not our Christian faith prevails. I think we stand or fall on the ability of our Christian faith to maintain the basis of our civilisation. That is a big issue, not just for the churches but for the whole civilisation.
Issue number two, I think, is the family. It is a truism almost that the family is the basic unit of society. When the family begins to fall apart, society begins to fall apart. The family is under great stress today, and one might say even that it is falling apart. Not the least worry today is the size of the family, now barely sufficient to maintain the present national population. When we speak about an increasing population we speak in terms of immigration; but we can't depend on immigration to maintain our numbers. If the family does not become larger we get into the situation that Japan is in, top heavy with elderly people. Things
are right out of kilter, out of balance, and in the end you don't have enough young people to maintain the older members. That is the sociological outcome of it all. So I think the limiting of families to one or two children has all sorts of implications for the future of our society and our world.
Another major issue is abortion. I think that it is the most damning
indictment of our society today, that in excess of about 80,000 babies are killed every year in this country. You know, when I was growing up, abortion was considered shameful in the extreme and people were horrified at the very thought of it. Today it is accepted by society. When you stop to think what abortion really is, it is frightening that our nation would be involved in it. So I think that is another major issue.
I think that social justice is a major issue. While you have such a big
gap between the rich and the poor, social justice will always be a major issue. I am not a communist, I don't think that everybody should be on the same income - certain people have skills and talents that others don't, and I suppose these should be transferred into financial terms- but there shouldn't be this great gaping gap that we have today. There is grave injustice here.
Employment, or unemployment, of course is a major issue. We shall
get to that. Drug abuse is another obvious one. There is much talk about that at the moment. Education and health care, they are major issues also and they make headlines every day. If they weren't major issues they probably wouldn't attract so much attention.

Cardinal, there is a theme that runs through there for me. I am not sure whether you agree, but there seems to be an issue of the value of human life that runs through, as I understand it, central to Christianity, that human life has intrinsic value and I suppose that is concerned with all these issues?

It is a point that the Pope has made constantly throughout his pontificate, that every human being has an innate dignity, that is, a worth, a value, almost infinite value, present even in the poor old derelict lying in the gutter. He is made in the image, in the likeness of God. He is someone, some mother's son. Until we realise the dignity of every human individual from the moment of conception we are going to be in serious trouble. The innate value of life, or dignity of the individual, is indeed a common theme.

What do you see as the best things about Australia today?

Freedom, there is great freedom in this country, even though we do go over the top sometimes, where it becomes license rather than freedom. Freedom and tolerance: I do think we are a tolerant people. And friendliness. I think that we are universally experienced as a friendly people. In my own moving around the world and visiting other countries I understand this perception.

What are the things that we can do better?

Abortion and unemployment are concrete kinds of things but I think, on a more theoretical level, the 'value vacuum' in society today is a concern. So many people just don't have values, not real values, those basic Christian values, the gospel values which have determined our Christian civilisation over the last couple of thousand years. People nowadays make their values up as they go along. The values today might be different ti•om the values tomorrow. The 'value vacuum' - yes, we can do better on that, as also unemployment, abortion, family.

When we talk about value vacuums and breakdown of family and abortion and social justice, all of those things, I suppose in the past it was a very church-centred society. The churches have been increasingly marginalised by other interest groups. What can the church do to arrest that decline?

I get that question from time to time - I got it from Alan Jones on the
radio not so long ago. The fact of the matter is that today, all the churches can do is present and promote the gospel. They can't force it on anyone. Right from the beginning the Lord sent out the disciples two by two; he said, if you go somewhere and they welcome your message, stay there and accept their hospitality; do whatever has to be done and then move on. If they don't want you, shake the very dust from your shoes and go elsewhere where they do. So obviously the church can't impose itself upon people. I don't think, ultimately, that the church can be blamed if society walks away from the gospel.
That having been said, we live in the era of the mass media, the
secular media monopolise mass communication. What they broadcast at saturation level has little to do with the gospel. They promote disvalues. Now that makes it very difficult for the church even to find a voice, and to make itself heard. So the church is right up against it in that sense, but the church has continued to do what it can, and we make what use of the media we can. A lot of people have the idea that the media are a kind of a neutral agency that one uses at will. But 'the media' really means the people who control the media and while there are many good people in the media, by and large, they are apostles of this secularist philosophy.

What is unemployment? Have you ever been unemployed? What was your first job?

So, what is unemployment? I would say that unemployment is the absence or the lack of gainful and rewarding work. What is an acceptable level of unemployment? There is no acceptable level of unemployment. Not even 1 percent or 0.1 percent. Again it is a question of human dignity. Every person must not only be worthwhile but feel worthwhile and that means work, that means doing work. To say that in practice it is difficult, or, as some would say, impossible, to employ everybody in this technological age of ours, is not an excuse. Our society must devise a system in which everybody does have satisfying work to do.

Is the idea of people who can't get work being offered some sort of work by government and being paid for it, whether it is still called the dole or it is an actual wage or whatever; do you think that sort of scheme might have some value?

Ah yes, if people don't have work then somehow or other they still have
to live and it is up to the government to provide them with at least the minimum whereby to do so. But I think that most people, the overwhelming majority of people, would prefer to work for what they get rather than just get it for no effort at all. Not everybody perhaps, but most would. And therefore I can see merit in a scheme whereby people did some work with the proviso, however, that it not be perceived or perceivable as some sort of a judgement, or a punishment of people who can't find work. It is not their fault if they can't, try as they might, get work. The scheme should be voluntary, but I do think that people's dignity demands that where possible they work for what they receive.

Are there any suggestions that you think would make a difference in the fight against unemployment?

Well, I think that there has to be some redistribution of wealth, and I just
don't mean the Robin Hood thing, taking away from the rich and giving to the poor, it is more subtle and more difficult than that. But things are radically wrong when you get so many people who are very rich, and so many who are so very poor. We have a great big gap there. So means have to be found whereby the wealth of the country is more equally distributed. And there are ways of doing it, I am sure there are. I think it means a greater willingness on the part of those that are very well off to share their wellbeing and their fortune with others - not just by means of handouts but by some other mechanisms as well.

Secondly I think that in giving jobs, giving work to people, there should be a preferential option for the poor, and a preferential option for the young. It is easy to take on an adult employee. They have got some experience, they are more available, and that doesn't give a young person a chance. I think there will always be occasions when it is reasonable to choose somebody who is older and more experienced but there are many, many situations where there is not much difference and one should give preference to the young. For example, of two-income families, many could become one-income families, and while it is true in many cases that they need the second income to survive, I think in too many cases it just serves to maintain the standard of living to which they have become accustomed. So it means people being prepared to accept a lower standard of living in order that others may have a higher standard of living. There are many things we can do to make it a better city, a better country to live in, and this means work being made available; it means some of our taxes being distributed for that purpose. It is one of the acknowledged ways of providing work.

Do you feel that Australia is a racist nation?

No, I think one can't say that Australians are racist because we run second only to Israel in terms of per capita immigration. Israel is about 100 percent. We run second to that and yet we have had virtually no real trouble in Australia - little tensions turn up here and there, and we have the Pauline Hansons surfacing from time to time. But any country which for this length of time has had such a great diversity in its population, and no real violence in the streets, can't be called a racist nation.

At the same time, both the question and the answer are somewhat simplistic. I think that under pressure there can always be a certain antipathy to somebody of another race, but it doesn't necessarily add up to racism. Somebody like Pauline Hanson can stimulate a fear of people one does not always understand. That sort of thing is always there, in every nation, I think. But are we racist? No, I would strongly maintain we are not.

What is education?

I think it is the development of one's talents and capacities. We all have certain talents and capacities that are developed, that need developing, through education.

The church through the Catholic school system is very involved in that area. How do you think you are serving people in that area?

I think we are doing pretty well actually. I think that our Catholic school system is doing a very good job, and parents certainly think so. There is a flow from State schools to private schools generally. I find our Catholic school communities are caring communities; there is this personal relationship, more personal than in many other schools. Whether or not they are preparing children sufficiently for the difficulties of later life and work, I don't know that I can answer that question. One could argue that because in later life so many run into all sorts of difficulties and so many don't get work, that we are not preparing them adequately, but I think that it is unfair to put all the onus on the school for that sort of preparation. Society itself, government, parents, all have to accept a share of that responsibility.

What role has formal classroom education and training played in your life?

It played a major role. I am of another generation, but things are not so different from today. I think that formal classroom education and training are still of great importance.

Is it the best place to learn about life?

There are all sorts of ways to learn about life, all sorts of facets to life, but I think classroom education and training is an essential component.

You touched on the flow of children from State education into all sorts of private education, suggesting that the quality of private schooling is generally superior to public school education. Do you see that opportunities for education are plentiful and well distributed in Australia?

With regard to your preliminary remarks, it is worth noting that I did all my primary education in the State school system and my father was a teacher in the State system, so I understand the State system and owe a lot to it. Are the opportunities plentiful and well distributed? They are plentiful but not well distributed. In the city there are plentiful opportunities universities, TAFE and all sorts of possibilities for people who want to learn, but the opportunities are mostly in the cities. Some of them are in the large country towns too, but a lot of people in the country don't have those facilities and they don't all have enough money to pay for them. So yes - plentiful but not well distributed.

In terms of well distributed, I was also looking at it from a socio­ economic perspective; to go to a private school generally has a cost associated with it where public education doesn't. It appears that university education is increasingly shifting to more 'upfront' fees. Do you see that as desirable?

No. I think it stands to reason that with the gap between the rich and the poor, and the increasing number of poor people, they are going to be disadvantaged every step of the way including education, and the fact that education is going to cost more means that they are going to be even more disadvantaged. It is probably worth saying that the Catholic school system educates a young person a lot less expensively than the State school system does. In Catholic schools there are levies, but they are in the State schools also. I don't think that the Catholic school system makes education more difficult for people, or less available, but certainly when you get to tertiary or beyond, then costs go up; and if universities favour fee-paying students as against subsidised students, there will be those who are greatly disadvantaged.

Here I am not looking for comment on the ACT's attempt at a heroin trial, but it appears that our efforts to attack the drug problem are not succeeding. Are you against the idea of illicit drugs being supplied to addicts under specific programs? And further, if what we are doing now isn't working, should we be looking 'outside the box' for an answer?

Somebody once said that it is a bad principle to legalise your problems
- there is a lot of wisdom in that. I think for a start that any system of providing drugs, if it is not aimed at curing the person with the addiction, certainly I would be totally against it. If it is something that is going to gradually get them off the addiction, you would have to look at it. But I think the main trouble is in looking only at the superficial outcomes of drugs. All these other things we have been talking about - family dysfunction, unemployment, poverty, the atomisation of the younger generation today. Some young people don't belong to stable families, they don't belong to the church in any meaningful sense, they don't belong to any kind of association - they are very much loners even though they knock around together. When it comes to the crunch they have got nobody to look to with confidence, to lean on, to counsel them.

You were saying that there are deeper causes that need to be addressed?

Our government and society likes to brush over those, and just look at the immediate causes - oh this child ran away from home and got on to drugs so the reason he got on drugs is because he ran away from home. There may well be all sorts of good reasons for running away from home. We have to dig deeper to find the real causes. Unless they are addressed, unless they are solved, the problem of drug use is not going to go away.

When I put these questions together they weren't actually as topical as they've now become. I am not really looking for, as I have said in other questions, a political comment on what was proposed by Dr Hewson in his GST or anything like that, but really further to say - do you think that the tax system serves our nation well?

Anybody who has had to fill in a tax return would agree that we are not being served well and that the tax system needs to be reformed. Our knowledge that there are so many loopholes and so many people managing to find them confirms this. I think there is all sorts of evidence that the system needs reform - and simplification.

So we open the door to reform: one option is the GST What do you feel are the critical issues that we should keep in mind when we are looking at tax reform?

The central thing is that whatever system we adopt, the main burden doesn't fall on the poorer people in society. Those with most should pay most, those with less should pay less. That should be the central principle.

What role can the church play in the tax reform debate?

We need to be concerned with principles - that is, moral principles. The church has a role in proclaiming moral principles. It hasn't any special expertise in economics.

You have touched on concern with the value of human life, and you also spoke of abortion. Another issue I am looking at is voluntary euthanasia. Do you see it playing a role in Australia's future?

Euthanasia is of course the deliberate intervention to terminate a person's life, in order to spare that person from suffering. It doesn't mean withdrawing futile and disproportionately stressful medical support that is unavailing - that's not euthanasia. To take a person's life is murder. To take one's own life is suicide. Neither is permissible according the traditions of our civilisation. Will euthanasia play a part in the future? You are asking me to speculate - I don't think it will. I certainly hope it won't. I think the good sense of the community will prevail into the future, as it did recently when euthanasia became a political issue.

Do you see fundamental dangers in the widespread introduction of euthanasia legislation?

Absolutely. Anything as morally flawed as that will create all sorts of problems. For a start it's the thin edge of the wedge without any doubt, although that seems not a good argument in the public debate. Experience has shown elsewhere that when you introduce euthanasia, after a while you start not to consult the person, who may be only half conscious anyhow, or you increase the categories of people subject to euthanasia, people who could live to 100 but are mentally or physically impaired, for example. All tl1ose abuses are wide open once one has introduced active euthanasia.

The prime minister has a Ten Point Plan which appears to be an effort to circumvent the umpire's decision in terms of the High Court's findings in the Mabo and Wik cases. Do you see a situation where the government is putting a plan in place to negate the power of the judiciary, so as to bridge that separation that is fundamental to the operations of a constitutional monarchy such as ours? If so, is that a desirable precedent?

I wouldn't wish to speak on the intentions of the government, but I would say that the end result of the Ten Point Plan, would be to leave the Aborigines worse off than they presently are, with less rights than they already have.

Moving away from that, but just in general, keeping the judiciary and the legislature separate - is that a good thing?

Oh, I think so, yes I do. I think that it's only while they remain separate, in tension somewhat, that we get the best deal and justice is preserved. If it were left to the politicians to both make the laws and interpret them, we would have good reason to be anxious. But on the other hand if it were all left to a handful of judges, again the balance would not be there, so I think the two should be kept separate and kept in tension.

Do you think that Australia will ever be a republic and what are the chances of that happening by 2000?

I think it will inevitably be a republic. I mean, 67 percent of our people are immigrants from countries other than Britain. That figure might not be quite right, but we certainly have a very big percentage, and an increasing percentage, that come from countries other than Britain and who have never had an allegiance to the Queen. Apart from that, we are a mature nation now, more or less, and it just doesn't make sense hanging on to the apron strings of England. So I think, yes, inevitably it will happen.

Is there a superior form of government to the one we have got? Do you see that as being critical to the republic issue?

That is a good question and a question that has to be asked. We don't want to have a republic just for the sake of having a republic or to shake off the embrace of Mother England just because it is Mother England. We need things like peace and justice and the government to deliver them. We need to take care that in adopting a new form of government we don't end up with worse. We're better to stay as we are than to adopt a worse, less effective form of government. Being a republic is not an end in itself.

Thank you very much for your time.

This post is taken from the book "Collective Wisdom".

ABOUT THE AUTHOR:

Brett Kelly is the founder and CEO of Kelly+Partners Chartered Accountants.

 

 

Since 2006 he and his team have built the firm from scratch to be the 38th largest Accounting Firm in Australia (of more than 13,000 firms). The firm is a multi award winner:

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