Transcript, E106: Building community with author Jami Attenberg

Share your thoughts or questions about this episode - comment on the post, or email the team at hellomonday@linkedin.com.

This episode of Hello Monday, "Building community with author Jami Attenberg," was first released on Monday, April 26, 2021.

Jessi Hempel: From the news team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel. And this is Hello Monday. It's our show about the changing nature of work, and how that work is changing us. 

A listener recently asked me to have Jami Attenberg on the show. Now, you might know Jami from her books -- she's written seven of them, including The New York Times bestseller, The Middlesteins. She's a talented and successful novelist and that's a hard thing to be, but that's not really what I want to talk to her about. 

Jami is a giver, a builder of community. It's an aspect of her being, a thing about her. Jami loves writing and she loves gathering around writing and she loves helping writers write. A few years ago, Jami started a social media challenge called 1000 Words of Summer. This year, she launched a newsletter to share what she's learned about craft. She calls it Craft Talk. 

Jami doesn't think about her own career the way that most people who come on our show do. She never set out to do any of this in order to help herself. She'll tell you that she just wants to make her art and hopes to make a living too, but publishing is notoriously difficult and Jami is notably supportive of others. She goes out of her way to help writers in particular and giving that help, well, it's done some great things for Jami too. Here's Jami Attenberg:

Jami Attenberg: Well, what I wanted was community. I would go to readings. You know, that the reading scene was really active at that point in New York. And hopefully will be again someday, but that was, you could go and meet a lot of people at readings. I always recommend it to people. That's a great way to meet, if not a writer that you admire, then another writer who might be in the same place as you. And that's how really you build community. It's just finding people who are exactly in the same place as you, or starting out, or, you know, at the same level, and kind of going from there. You know, also great to find a mentor too but, the friends that I've had that I started out with I've become very close with.

But also, I started a reading series. I will say. When my first book came out, I started a reading series at the Boxcar Lounge in the East village. And this would have been in 2005, 2006, somewhere around there. And it's called The Graduation series. Yeah, I think it was called The Graduation series. And it was anybody who had a debut book. And I did it (in) maybe four months, a year. And I picked four writers who were debuts. Some of them are continuing to write and some of them, they only had the one book. 

That's how I met a lot of people. 'Cause I would just, I was really, I don't want to say I was aggressive about it, but I really am excited to meet writers. And I really am genuinely excited to be a part of this community. It's like, we all share, you know, a similar mindset and we all have a shorthand that we can share right when we meet. I mean, not everyone gets along right away, but like, it's just something that was missing in my life until I started becoming friends with writers.

Jessi Hempel: You know Jami, I had thought that your role as a convener began later, after you were established, had your best sellers. But it sounds to me like actually you were a convener from the start.

Jami Attenberg: Yeah, and then I had another reading series at my house in Brooklyn. I had the Sunset series where I would have writers come over and read in the loft and then we'd all go up to the roof of the building. So I did that for a couple of years too. So, it's just an excuse to have a party more than anything else. I mean, and have some drinks and hang out I suppose. 

But I haven't done it down here in New Orleans, but I definitely did it in New York and I've done it other ways. I do it in other ways, I suppose too. It's not anything about being a professional. Do you know what I mean? It's not really about networking or anything like that. I just genuinely enjoy the time of these people.

Jessi Hempel: Jami, I'm curious, you know, you say it wasn't with a business hat on or from a business perspective. That wasn't the point of it. Can you unpack that a little bit?

Jami Attenberg: The reading series to me is just like a really fun time to see people and to hear new work. So I couldn't have even imagined that it was something business related. Although we did sell books, we always had a bookseller so that, you know, because we want people to, like, make money. I just think if I put it in the framework of things being professional, then I wouldn't want to do it.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jami Attenberg: There's so much I have to do as a writer that is professional that I don't want to do, especially surrounding say, the launch of a book. So, if I'm doing something that's in my off time, like, I better be enjoying it. Do you know what I mean? Like why do something like that and put all that time and effort into something if it's going to feel uncomfortable?

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. Well, in those early days, how did that role that you played in the literary community in New York as a convener, how did it interact with your work -- the business of writing -- which is kind of a one-person task.

Jami Attenberg: Oh, I just think I liked to hear other people's writing and that influenced me and I was excited to see what people were doing. So in that way, I think it was good to be exposed to new ideas and new voices and new work, that heavily influenced me. Watching different people present themselves, like how they give readings, how they communicate with the world, probably influenced me, and I probably learned from that. It's all just connected for me though. It's all the same. 

It's all a spectrum, right? Like one end of the spectrum is a tweak. (Jami and Jessi laugh) On the other end of the spectrum is putting out a novel. And then, in the middle, there's writing an essay or there's giving a reading or that, you know like they're all on the spectrum of what it means to be a writer, to be an author. Author with a capital a. So, it's all part of a creative process.

Jessi Hempel: Here, it's helpful to know a little about Jami's writing career. Jami always wanted to write but, mostly, it was a side project in her twenties. Then in her early thirties, she decided to just go for it. She got her first book published in 2006. Then she published two more novels. And her fourth book, also a novel, it was called The Middlesteins. Well, that became a bestseller and that really changed things for her.

Jami Attenberg: Well, I always say that it's like you get a promotion but they don't hire anyone to replace you. So you have to sort of be a more public facing version of yourself but then you still have to be getting your work done too. So it impacted me in that I was out there in the world more. I was touring a lot. I toured for a couple, really like two or three years, a lot and somehow managed to write another book in all that at the same time too. You know, you have to wrestle with it. I think people wrestle with it all the time. That when you get a little bit more success because you don't want to miss opportunities.

Jessi Hempel: Right.

Jami Attenberg: Like if you're not an academic, for example, if you're, you know, if you're tenure or something like that then you have a set salary. But if you're like me, you make money from advances. You might make money from speaking engagements. You might make money from writing for magazines, things like that. You're always trying to balance, making sure you have time to do the thing that you really love which is to write the books and the other things that will help pay the bills.

Jessi Hempel: That must be a tricky balance to get right. Talk to me about your relationship with your audience. Like is the point of, of an audience to grow as big as possible? Is that the point?

Jami Attenberg: The point for me is this is the way I communicate with the world. 

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jami Attenberg: So, it would be great to communicate with lots of people, if I can. But not everything I write is going to reach lots of people. But I want to make sure that the stuff that does reach lots of people is as good as it can be. I'm not sure if I'm answering your question, but that's my, that's my point of being. It's like, how do I connect with the world? 

How do I communicate with the world? What am I putting out there? How am I being of service? There are times in my career, and I think other writers would probably express a similar experience, where you get asked to write something you don't really want to write, or it just seems like cute, or a waste of time, or you just don't feel inspired by it even if it's a perfectly good idea. And then you put it out there...

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. 

Jami Attenberg: ...and it isn't good. So I try not to do that anymore. But when you're young and you're starting out, you sort of say yes to everything, 'cause you just don't know.

Jessi Hempel: Kind of have to take every opportunity.

Jami Attenberg: Yeah, you have to take-- I mean, I feel like that probably translates across a lot of careers. You sort of try all these things to see what works. You're not necessarily born with an instinct that tells you what is or isn't worth your time. Or if you have a bad advisor or, I mean, there's, you know or you just, you know, screw up, you make a mistake. So, hopefully you learn from it. So, I'm just, my focus is like making sure that I'm putting out good stuff.

Jessi Hempel: We're going to take a quick break. When we get back, we'll hear about how Jami continues to create community. 

(Podcast ad break)

And we're back with Jami Attenberg, a novelist and a natural born convener. That convening, isn't dependent on a physical space. In fact, when it comes to her newsletter or that project I mentioned earlier, 1000 Words Of Summer, being in a particular place hasn't really mattered much at all.

Jami Attenberg: There's a possibility of developing good and positive communities on the internet. If I ever try to do something on the internet and I say, and I mean, "do" in quotation marks, it will fail. If I do anything that's in an inorganic way, it will, people will, can tell that I'm, I mean, I don't even try really, but you can see it in other people where they're just trying to create something that's not real but they just think maybe it's a good idea. I'm really just trying to like, listen to the wave. Do you know what I'm saying? 

So what happened was, with 1000 Words Of Summer, is that I have a friend here who is a memoirist, and who was also a teacher - actually teaches at the arts high school here. And she was trying to work on a proposal for a new memoir and the summer vacation was coming up and I was trying to finish my book. It would have been All This Could Be Yours, I was trying to finish a draft of All This Could Be Yours, which was my seventh book. This would have been in 2018. And I said, let's just do like a little bootcamp where we write 1000 words a day for two weeks straight. Right? 14,000 words is a lot of words.

And I mentioned it on social media. I think I mentioned it on Twitter and immediately all these people said I want to do this too. And I thought, well, maybe I should create a little place. they can sign up for it. Oh, you know, one of these newsletters, something like that. So I created a little place for them to sign up for it. Picked a date. Everyone online sort of collectively agreed online that they wanted to do it. And then 2,000 people signed up for it like in a week or something like that. And I thought, wow, that's a lot of people who are going to do this. So, then I just started writing.

I decided to write a letter every day. And then I asked other friends, who were writers, to write their thoughts and creativity and productivity. And that's what we did. And that was the first year of it. And there was two weeks of it and people seemed to get a lot out of it. And it was, it was a manageable amount of people. And Twitter was a little bit different then where you could get on there, and we could just all sort of chat and it felt like a nice place to be for a couple of weeks. 

And then I did it the next year, and 5,000 people had signed up, and then the next year, 10,000 people had signed up. And it has become a lot of work. (laughs) Not going to lie. It's a lot, but I'll do it again, I guess. Just last year was really hard. And I did two rounds of it because the first round of it was so hard because it fell in the midst of the protests. It just did not feel good. And so we did another round later and actually everyone was still at home. So, you know, they still wanted to do it.

Jessi Hempel: Talk to me about the hard part.

Jami Attenberg: The hard parts of it are that there is a community to manage that I- I'm community oriented and I'm online community oriented but I'm not online community oriented of 10,000 people. You need help. You need people to do that.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. 

Jami Attenberg: Like, that is a job, right? I'm guessing. I don't know very much about it but it felt like it was a job. You know, I had to write my own 1000 words. I had to write my own letter. And also, I didn't know these people. And most people seem to be really excited about it, and then, you know, the internet is, you just don't know what you're going to get?

So what I did was I created a Slack and somebody tried to sort of, immediately take control of it, which I kind of said, no, (laughs) you can't do that. Like all these people are like, "I'll help. I love Slack." And I've never even been on a Slack 'cause I have no need to be on a Slack, and I work at home by myself. So, I had to, like, learn how you Slack and figure out how to run it and manage it. 

They eventually after like maybe a week or something everybody sort of coalesced. And they were, and it was nice. I mean, it was hard to look at it all the time but it was nice to see people who were who were familiar with it and they could connect off of it. I think I had out of 10,000 people, I think we had 1000 people sign up for it, for the Slack. Is that a lot?

Jessi Hempel: That's a lot of people. 

Jami Attenberg: Yeah, it was a lot at the time. And then I let it run after I was done. And I don't even know if it's still up or not. There's a decision that I could have made a long time ago you know, probably a year or two ago where I could have said, "Do I want to turn this into something more?" But I don't think it's my job. So,

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jami Attenberg: I didn't.

Jessi Hempel: I really hear that. I think that online community can be so challenging because the internet, the promise of the internet, was this new intimacy we discover with people we might not have ever discovered before. And I'm just not sure that intimacy scales. True relationships, authentic relationships, maybe they never were meant to be 10,000 people.

Jami Attenberg: It's a lot of people. It really is. But I don't think I said this and I really need to say this. The reason, truly, why I want to... wanted to do it, is because I really wanted to encourage people to write. And I had come from a place, obviously where I didn't have access to information at the time.

Jessi Hempel: This idea that Jami just shared, this idea that it can be hard to figure out publishing's rules. Well, it's the reason for this episode. A lot of industries are like this. Maybe yours is. They're competitive and it's hard to figure out who gets the opportunities and why, and how to make it. It can be so discouraging. And a lot of people, if they're lucky enough to make it, they just keep climbing. No looking back. 

But there's another way to do this. Whether you're a writer or a product manager or a film producer or an entrepreneur, you can choose to nurture a community, to share the information you've worked so hard to collect yourself. And maybe that's a better way to be. Jami thinks about it this way.

Jami Attenberg: I didn't have access to certain gatekeepers or lots of gatekeepers. And it made me feel like I was never going to be able to be a writer, and that I was never going to be able to have it as a career.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jami Attenberg: And I love writing so much, even if it was never going to be in a career. I had always been writing. I just didn't want-- I just wanted people to like have the same experience that I did, of loving it and feeling like it was available and feeling like there were other people like you who just want it to write, and feeling encouraged by that. That's why I do all of this.

Even though, sometimes, it's a lot of work or a pain in the ass. It is, I think -- I genuinely believe it's been helpful to people. It's certainly become a way of me giving back to a community that has supported me. Even if they're not exactly the people who have supported me. You don't get to pick and choose who you support sometimes. Do you know what I mean? 

Like you just kind of have to put the good stuff out there and hope and hope it comes back in some way and maybe it doesn't even come back, you know? I've just been doing this for such a long time and I'm, you know, I'm, mid-career. It's hard for me to imagine any mid-career artist not looking back at the people who are coming up behind them and thinking, how can I help?

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. I really hear that. It also makes me think about the significance of choosing to call oneself a writer. And I think you've referenced this idea of gatekeeper a whole lot of times. And a gatekeeper's anybody who holds the potential to help you along in your career and help your work reach an audience, I guess. But the way in which you cultivate community allows people to be writers not because they have published, but because they actually do the writing. That, I really respect.

Jami Attenberg: I get so much out of it. I know other people get a lot out of it too. And I, I just hate the idea of people being silenced. It just, it just drives me insane. We have so much opportunity in this country to put our words out there. And yet still, there are people who feel intimidated or they were taught, they couldn't for some reason or another. 

And it's just such a simple and lovely and pure act, and you don't need-- You don't even need money to do it. Do you know what I mean? Like you can just, it's just the simplest kind of art in the world. I suppose singing is also a very simple kind of art too. But to me, it's just sitting down with a pen and paper and with your thoughts and it's just very personal and intimate. 

And I know that it helps people to put their thoughts down on paper. I know that it does. Even if you're not going to get a book published, if you're just tweeting or you're writing a blog post or a poem in your journal. Putting down your feelings somewhere and your ideas it can be helpful spiritually and emotionally.

Jessi Hempel: Couldn't agree more. Jami, talk to me a little bit about Craft Talk, your newsletter.

Jami Attenberg: Well, I started in, I think I started in September last year and I taught some last year. I did a lot of Zoom workshops because I was supposed to go teach, you know, different programs, but of course, because of the pandemic, everything was online. Really what I felt and was taking away from it, was the only people who could study with me, were people who could afford it. And that was making me into a gatekeeper of information, right? And so, I didn't like that. 

I didn't like it. I certainly liked teaching and I liked all my students. I really appreciate everybody who's involved in participating in all of this kind of stuff. It's a really great energy, but I didn't like that, the only people that are going to hear what I had to say about craft, whatever that means, they were the people who paid for it. So, this seems like an easy way to reach a lot of people. 

I was actually, I will tell you, I was kind of nervous, because people sign up for one thing with that, for that mailing list, right? They signed up for 1000 Words Of Summer, they didn't sign up for a regular weekly email from me. So, I was like maybe they'll all just drop out, you know? They'll all unsubscribe. I was interested to see how many people unsubscribed from it because of this.

Jessi Hempel: And?

Jami Attenberg: I think I'm a little bit higher. I think I'm close to 11,000 now, but I know that people dropped out along the way. There were some people who were kind of like, I don't need to hear about writing every week from this lady, I'm sure. 

Jessi Hempel: (laughs)

Jami Attenberg: But, it's pretty much stayed, it's pretty much stayed steady with a little, a little bit of increase.

Jessi Hempel: Well, so you launched it on Substack. And Substack, as a newsletter company, offers the ability for a newsletter writers to drop a paywall and ask people to pay. And you do have an opt-in paywall. And I'm curious how you came to that decision. And if you could describe a little bit what happens when people pay?

Jami Attenberg: I make very little money off of it because you give a portion of it to Substack. And then I-- 50% of what I get, whatever remains goes to various social justice, cultural, educational organizations in New Orleans. So I get a little bit. I think some of it has to go to taxes and I buy my dog treats (laughs) with the rest of it. It's not, it's not very much money. 

But I did think, "Oh maybe this is a way that I could fundraise a little bit." And so that actually has been quite a gift for me to be able to, every week, go and figure out who I want to give money to in New Orleans. It's kind of fun.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jami Attenberg: I don't know. I should maybe be...

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. 

Jami Attenberg: ...making money off of it. (laughs)

Jessi Hempel: I don't know, it sounds to me like you have a little bit of an ambivalent relationship with making money.

Jami Attenberg: Well, I feel like I'm, I'm covered. I'm all right, right now. Like I could just got a two book deal, so I'm like okay. And I like giving money away here in the city. But it's been like a way to give back as they say. Yeah, I'm not ambivalent about it. I like it. I like, I like nice pants. So, just sitting in this house, buying pants for myself as I get, you know, during the pandemic 'cause I need a new pants size.

Jessi Hempel: Well, you're in New Orleans now, right? 

Jami Attenberg: Yeah, I'm in New Orleans.

Jessi Hempel: You're in New Orleans now. And you...

Jami Attenberg: Yeah. 

Jessi Hempel: You were in Brooklyn earlier in your career. Why did you move?

Jami Attenberg: Oh, I just love it here. And I've been here five years. I just bought a little house here. I had been coming here every winter for a couple of years and had, like, tried a lot of different cities out because I didn't think... New York is tough. I mean, it's great, but it's also not a great place to be if you don't have a lot of money and are not young.

I was like tired of just- All I was doing was just paying my rent over and over and over again. So, I moved down here. I was just trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I was 50. And now I'm almost 50 and I'm here.

Jessi Hempel: Are you where you want to be?

Jami Attenberg: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I would love to not be in this house all the time. But I don't know where else I would go. I really love it here. And I made a nice, you know, a nice community here, no reading series here. You know, I do think the newsletter though, and the Craft Talk and that kind of stuff is sort of like my like stab at a reading series or something. I have, like, a fantasy of having an outdoor reading series for a couple of months here and there.

You know, what my problem is that it's very hard to sustain, when I do a reading series, for me to sustain it over an extended period of time. Like I do it for two months and I'm like, oh my god, that was a lot of work. I don't feel like doing that anymore. That's the thing. You do things and it's for free then you just get to make your own roles. I don't know. I just like to make stuff up and come up with fun ideas.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. Well, you certainly don't need to provide the consistency if no one is, is paying you to do that. You can try things, right?

Jami Attenberg: I'll be honest with you, even now that there's like paid subscribers, there's not that many. Like, that there's enough paid subscribers on my newsletter that makes me feel like, wow I really have to do this every week. I committed to the newsletter for a year, in my mind.

Jessi Hempel: That was really smart of you.

Jami Attenberg: Yeah. I mean, in my mind, that's it. I'm like, I'm just going to do it for a year. 'Cause I'm going to run out of things to say, for sure. And I would like to turn it into a book. That's another project of mine. Like I think that there is a way to take that stuff that already exists and organize it in a certain way. I have really thought if I do this through the year and I write a thousand words a week on it that that is actually going to be, you know, 50, 60,000 words. By the end of the year, that's actually a book. And so I thought, well, maybe...

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jami Attenberg: ...maybe there's some way to turn this into a kind of a literary motivational book. I have some other thoughts that might be helpful.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah, please.

Jami Attenberg: I was just thinking like, I'm not trying to make other people feel bad but you know that part about being like a mid-career artist?

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jami Attenberg: And like looking back, like, I just think, I just don't know what anyone is doing with their time if they're not at least helping other people a little bit. I don't know if that sounds preachy. I kind of arrive at this place of like, instead of operating on instinct and trying to participate where I could. As I got older, I thought, how do I choose the best ways to use my time? How do I focus my energy in a really positive way? And so I really thought doing the newsletter was going to be good and helpful.

Jessi Hempel: I love that you say that. You know, Jami, time is truly our only finite resource. We think all these other things are finite resources like money, but in truth, time has no give whatsoever. And so our challenge -- and it definitely applies to a conversation about careers but it's more-- It's a broader conversation. Our challenge is to figure out how to use it wisely. And I think what I hear you saying is if you're not using it in service to others, particularly if you've had some success already, then maybe you're not using it wisely.

Jami Attenberg: Even if it's just a little bit. Now also, I just want to say one thing, which is that I have a book deal. I have a little financial stability at this moment in my life. I do not have children. I have a stable home environment. So this year has been- For somebody like me, all I've had is time. You see what I'm saying?

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. 

Jami Attenberg: I have many friends who are married and who have children and who are struggling to make ends meet and who are struggling to find the time to write. Or people who maybe don't have kids but they have to work five jobs or they're a caregiver to, you know-- There's so many people who don't have the luxury of time like I do this year. And I have been very conscious of that.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jami Attenberg: And also very conscious of people who have felt beaten down by the system for a variety of reasons.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Jami Attenberg: And so, this is a very small thing that I can do to support people who want to write.

Jessi Hempel: Listen Jami, it was so lovely to speak with you. It really was.

Jami Attenberg: Yeah, same. Thank you.

Jessi Hempel: That was Jami Attenberg. Her next book is a memoir and it comes out in about a year. It's called, I Came All This Way To Meet You. I can't wait to read it. 

So this week on office hours, we're going to talk about what it means to be a giver. When's it been helpful to you. I mean, who has helped you along the way? So join us this Wednesday afternoon at 3:00 PM. Eastern. We'll be on the LinkedIn news page. You can find us by following LinkedIn news or emailing hellomonday@linkedin.com for the link.

Now, if you liked the show, please take a moment right now to rate and review us on Apple podcasts or wherever you listen. We say this almost every week because it really is true. It helps listeners find us when you do this.

Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn. The show is produced by Sarah Storm. Joe DiGiorgi mixed our show. Florencia Iriondo is head of original audio and video. Dave Pond is our technical director. Michaela Greer, Samantha Roberson, Carrington York, and Victoria Taylor give freely of their time and imagination. And we're so grateful.

Our music was composed just for us by the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. You also heard music from Podington Bear. Dan Roth is the Editor in Chief of LinkedIn. I'm Jessi Hempel. Our show is back next Monday. Thanks for listening. 

Jessi Hempel: We have this crazy Brooklyn apartment with too many people who all are on top of each other. And so today, I am at the neighbor's house in their baby's nursery. So what you see around me are the trappings of a little boy named Solomon who has two gay dads who ordinarily are like high style but kind of overwhelmed by a two year old.

Jami Attenberg: Sounds like a title of a children's book. Solomon's two gay dads.

Jessi Hempel: It should be. Yeah, right.

For more on this episode of Hello Monday, check out this article featuring Jessi's conversation with Jami Attenberg, and leave your thoughts in the comments!