Transcript, E122: Reopening: Matthew McConaughey on planning for the future

Share your thoughts or questions about this episode - comment on the post, or email the team at hellomonday@linkedin.com.

For more on this episode of Hello Monday, check out this article on my chat with Matthew McConaughey, and leave your thoughts in the comments.

This episode of Hello Monday, "Reopening: Matthew McConaughey on planning for the future," was first released on August 9, 2021.

Jessi Hempel: From the News team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel, and this is Hello Monday. Welcome back to our REOPENING series. We're in the home stretch on the fifth of six big questions about what we want from work. This week, we ask you to start dreaming big again, because look, for a year and a half we've been planning in one-week increments, sometimes one-hour increments. And that served us well as we navigated the worst of the pandemic. 

But now? Well, now we can plan and dream and scheme again. We can make a legit, optimistic five-year plan. So today is about remembering how to do that. It's gonna be fun. Expansive. And dare I say entertaining.

Today's guest is an actor and a writer with a bright view of the future, Matthew McConaughey. I specifically wanted to talk to Matthew about dreaming and scheming for two reasons. One, taking the long view demands self-reflection. Now, last year Matthew published a memoir, Greenlights, in which he reveals himself to be a guy who's made a discipline of it. 

Long before quarantine, he stepped out of his Hollywood life regularly to reflect. This was kind of a surprise to me until I read the book. The second reason I wanted to talk to Matthew is his innate confidence. He possesses a foundational belief that he can pull anything off. Now, I wish I thought this way by default. I don't. Do you? Maybe Matthew can show us how. Here he is.

Matthew McConaughey: The last year... Look, I - and I know I'm coming to-to you and to the rest of the world, I understand I am in a more privileged position. My pantry was full. I had worked and saved up enough money where I didn't have to bite my nails tonight to go, "I got to work tomorrow to pay the rent." Part of my job is to be able to adapt. I pretty much said, "Okay, inflection time, inventory time. Family, sit down. It's us and us for a while," 'cause we- we were very conservative about, everything was remote, we've seen very few people in the last 16 months, personally and physically. Every couple of weeks we'd have the dinner where we said, "All right, kiddos, everyone, you're allowed to cuss, you're allowed to say what sucks about this. Mom, you're allowed to sit there and- and gripe about not being able to play Mahjong with your friends, and let's get it out." So if that was on a Sunday night, Monday, for the next two weeks, we're gonna- we're gonna make the best of it. Tried to really look at those upsides and go, we were forced into this, we were all forced to take more inventory in ourselves, and who the hell, what the hell mattered to us, maybe realign our value system...

Jessi Hempel: Right.

Matthew McConaughey: ...So those were definitely some assets.

Jessi Hempel: Well, so tell me a little bit about what this period of coming out and beginning to return to some of...

Matthew McConaughey: Yeah

Jessi Hempel: ...maybe some of your normalcy if you're gonna call it that. What- what's that been like for you?

Matthew McConaughey: Well, two things. One, I'm in the middle of measuring how much we've been living the new normal, how much we're not going back. It's never gonna be like it was before...

Jessi Hempel:Yeah.

Matthew McConaughey: ...Two, Hey, should it be? Let's talk about work. Many companies, people were more productive. I could argue I was more productive.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah

Matthew McConaughey: Remotely. The intentionality of this meeting. You and I, Jessi, get on at 11:00 a.m. Central Texas Time. At 11:01, we're talking about the subject. At 11:59, we will say goodbye and I will go back, and 30 seconds after we say goodbye, and be with my family, what I value the most.

Jessi Hempel:Yeah.

Matthew McConaughey:In 30 seconds. I didn't have to fly, I didn't leave a carbon footprint. I didn't have to drive, I didn't have to go through hair and makeup, I didn't have to do wardrobe, didn't have to come sit down, we didn't have to wait on the lighting. It's intentional.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Matthew McConaughey: ...And in some ways I would say maybe more intimate because of it's intentionality.

Jessi Hempel: But you know, I've been thinking about how change happens at so many levels. And yeah, maybe we will all go back to the mall, and back to the restaurants, maybe we'll jump on planes and travel, and go back to our business travel, but at least for me, I suspect that I am fundamentally, in- in important ways, a different person internally, such that even if I go and recreate those same experiences, I will be experiencing them in a slightly different, and I would like to think more authentic way.

Matthew McConaughey: Heard. Yeah. I mean, when I said earlier forced monasticism, I mean look, not all of us- You read my book, I've taken backpack trips by my- by myself and had a pretty good spider-sense for when I needed to get out on my own to go hear myself think. Not all of us have the luxury to do that. Even now I don't with three kids. 

But boy, this last year and half, I... I- we were all forced to in some way. And it's an uncomfortable situation because lotta times, we don't like spending times- spending time with ourselves. And that walls can get small, and they can come in, and we can get cabin fever, and that old bottle of whatever you're drinking can start to look a little bit better to have a sip of earlier in the day. And you're going like, "I'm not enjoying this company. Will someone let me out?" You know? But ultimately that's- I believe, that's a great process to go through because...

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Matthew McConaughey: ...I believe it's healthier for us all to get to a place where we- where we understand the difference between being alone and lonely.

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Matthew McConaughey: I think it's... it's very healthy for us to be able to spend time with ourselves and not be lonely, to be alone and not be lonely, to reinforce and enrichen the close relationships we have, the only ones we can have, like we've had in this last year and a half to some extent. Those are on the upside, those are in the black, that's in the asset side. And even though it's hard to go through that, and even harder if you're stuck with yourself and you're trapped, and you're trying to get a job and you're not able to work, that makes it even much more difficult. But boy, if you could- time alone, time we're forced to spend with ourself is valuable time that we do not spend enough of, that this last year and a half at least made us do.

Jessi Hempel: So there was this interesting thing that I noticed in your book, Matthew. Like stepping back and looking at the long arc of it. And that is that it seemed like you would go into the world, the very public world, Hollywood, you make some projects. You'd- you'd have some success and you know some things that maybe didn't go your way, you'd learn a lot. And then you'd step out of the world and you would go to a place like Peru, or very early on, Australia. And it struck me that there was value for you in being able to step in and step out. And I was wondering how much your early fame influenced that, or if you thought that's actually probably innate to who you are, you would do that anyways?

Matthew McConaughey: Oh, good question. I think it was innate to who I was…

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Matthew McConaughey: ...But then also later on, after fame, I saw that it was actually practical and useful for my health and wellbeing. That I needed to take times to step out, to let me re-catch up, to say hey, what matters to me and what doesn't. In this- for instance, when I first got famous and the world, was yes, everything was yes. I wasn't feeling my heels on the ground. The roof was taken off my life and I was like, "I don't feel my heels, my feet on the ground." 

In the most affluent position I've ever been in, as I write about in the book, I just win Most Handsome, I got a job, I got 50 bucks in my back pocket, I got a four handicap, I made two holes in ones, I got a girlfriend, I got a truck that's paid for, I made my straight As, Mom and Dad are happy. I got no curfew. I'm like, why leave this, man? Let's roll. And I said, oh, no, let's get the hell out of here and go to a faraway place where you nobody- nobody knows your name and knows who you are, and see if you can build some credibility in- from hello, in a place where nobody knows you. I've always been- I've had an-an- an itch and that's part of the reason that I take the trips after getting famous. You get famous, you don't meet anyone at hello anymore. You have a biography on me, Jessi. Some- some idea you have of me, and we just- we actually just met for the first time...

Jessi Hempel: I know.

Matthew McConaughey: So I've always felt the need to go, I want to go where no one knows my name and see if when I say goodbye, those hugs and tears are about the man they met.

Jessi Hempel: Have you needed that- You know you're- you're now in the middle of your life. You got famous, I would say, at the very beginning of your- not the very beginning, but like the very beginning of your life as an individual...

Matthew McConaughey: Mmhmm

Jessi Hempel: ...Has your need for that changed over time?

Matthew McConaughey: Yes, because I'm- I'm- I'm- I'm a father and I'm- and I'm- and I'm married, so I have three children. And I don't afford myself the luxury to say: "I'm going to Mali after tomorrow with my backpack. I'll be back in 30 days." I just got more responsibilities. I've got...

Jessi Hempel:  Sure.

Matthew McConaughey: So, so I'm living more for the- the future and their future as well. And look, do I still need to sneak off to the backyard and go stay in the Airstream for a couple of days? Sure. We have to- it's harder, you've got to carve out time for your- for our- for our- our- our lovers, our spouses. We have to carve out time for ourselves as well. And then say, "Hey, it's good that the kids see they're not always number one." But that's a challenge. So yeah, today I need it, but I know I'm- I'm like, bide some time.

Jessi Hempel: Matthew's committed to doing the things he needs to do to live his best life. He kind of embodies this idea that you only get one shot, and he's gonna take it. Now, as you can hear this confidence, it's so crystallized. He doesn't settle for a good role when he can see a great role ahead of him. Like there's this example that I love in, um, the John Grisham film, A Time to Kill. 

Originally, he was cast in it as a side role, but he wanted to be the lead. Now I know that doesn't sound crazy right now, but at that point in his career, he was a new kid on the block. It was not clear at all that he could carry something like that. Still, he asked for it, and he didn't take no for an answer either. He auditioned for it, and eventually he got it. And it's not just that Matthew did it this one time, this is Matthew's thing. He just does this over, and over, and over again. I wanted to know what gave him the confidence to believe that this could possibly be an appropriate thing to do.

Matthew McConaughey: So it was about, kind of up- challenging my- daring myself to go, "Well you know you're right, you know you're right for it." It scares the heck out of you and you think, "Who the hell do you think you are to be asking?" But you know, believe that you're right for it. Maybe you're not today, but if you get put in the game you'll do the work. And then the second thing was, see if I can get away with it. Lets- lets What- what are they gonna do? What's the worst? They just tell me no. What's the worst thing they can do, is go- is you can get embarrassed by the ask, or- or maybe being too up front. So the confidence was a bit projected. 

I mean, yeah. I'm scared, I'm ner- my heartbeat is rising, and I'm pulling on the drag of my cigarette in my sleeveless Mellencamp shirt waiting for that moment to go, "I think I should play that role." I mean, I'm nervous too when I'm doing that. I'm not Joe Cool, I'm maybe lookin' Joe Cool, but my heartbeat is bap, bap, bap. Like saying yes to Michelle in the wrestling match in Africa. My heartbeat is racing, going, oh my gosh, what is- what could happen? You could... You get killed, you could get a broken arm, I don't know, but the idea that- this is what I think it comes down to. 

If I take a risk and jump in and- and do my best, if it works, I enjoy looking in the mirror and going, "You had a lot to do with that, Matthew." If it doesn't work, I don't like it, but I respect looking in the mirror and going, "You had a lotta reason why that didn't work." The feeling I don't like, the feeling that keeps me up at night is, what if? Dammit, what if I- why didn't I just. Why did I choke when I got right there to the finish line? Why did- I had- I had a gap, it was right there, and I- and I put my foot in my mouth, or I said no, and now I don't know what would've happened. That feeling, the not knowing is what keeps me up at night, that I don't like that feeling...

Jessi Hempel: Yeah. 

Matthew McConaughey: ...The knowing if I had something to do with the success, or the knowing that I had something to do with the failure, I'd rather deal with even the knowing that I had something- a lot to do with the failure than not knowing what if I would've just tried?

Jessi Hempel: Well, so you mention embarrassment, right? The embarrassment that you- you might be perceived as- as being qualified for something that, in fact, you are in no way qualified for and the rest of the world knows it, and it turns out you're a fraud, and now I'm spiraling in my own anxiety, I'm not talking for you. Did it, did you ever get a no? I mean have you- have you sort of run that and been told, "No, you don't get this after all"? 'Cause I'm just curious if you experienced the embarrassment, or if, in fact, like the embarrassment is a mirage; it doesn't exist.

Matthew McConaughey: No, I've had- yeah, I've had plenty of embarrassment and plenty of nos. I have had auditions where I was down to the wire, where I made you know U-turns in the middle of interstates to go back and try and audition again, and went in the room and barged in, and just went for something that completely sucked, it was completely off the mark. And they were like, "What? Get out of here. We're going to call the cops." And left going, "Oh my gosh, that was a big whiff." But I got over that embarrassment, and that night I was able to go to sleep and go, "Well, you sure as hell swung." You- you missed completely, but you- and I noticed what nagged me more was leaving things and going: "You kind of gave it 80%." That would nag me more than swinging and whiffing on the 100%.

We're talking with one of my children. He's got a uh friend that he wants to talk to. There not- it's not a serious relationship very nice relationship. And we're about to leave town and go on vacation and he's like, "Well, I'll just, I'll just call her," and we're like, "No, no, no. This is a conversation to have in person." And you could see he gets- starts like- "You're nervous?" he's like, "Yeah." I was like, "Good." These are those ones that you need. You'll feel like a bit larger person. No matter what her response is, you'll feel more, in- in time, greater about yourself. Plus it's a great habit...

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Matthew McConaughey: ...I've always tried to have it. Not 100% have I pulled it off. I've tried to have it, to answer nos to people in person as well, rather than the easy no-show, or the easy text, you know. Whether it's to a director or a friend, or something. To go and have the hard conversation, the one that you just don't like. 'Cause what happens on- after every one of those nos if you do it in person? Even if that person is hurt and didn't get the outcome they wanted, they respect you more.

Jessi Hempel: We're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, Matthew will tell us about what happened when he decided to make a change that Hollywood was not interested in.

(podcast ad break)

And we're back. Matthew McConaughey, for a long time, made romantic comedies. He was great at them. He was so fun to watch, and he had fun, too. He made money. But at this certain point he hit that moment that a lot of us, well, a lot of us find ourselves in right now, where what used to fulfill him, it just stopped working. The system, Hollywood, was still interested in Matthew McConaughey the romantic comedy star, but Matthew wanted something different. He needed to make a change.

Matthew McConaughey: I think we know, inherently as humans, I think we know what we need to do more often than we give ourself credit for. The hard part is choosing, when do I do it? We could put stuff off and bump it forward for so long, like, dammit. You know I write in the book that there's a quote in there that I love that keeps coming to- rising to the top recently, which is, "Sometimes it's not about what decision you make, just dammit, make one and commit to it." It will reveal itself, because I've done it, how many times we sit there in limbo? Well, maybe tomorrow, maybe tomorrow, and all of a sudden a decade goes by and you're like, "I'm still weighing that," and you're like, but dude, just- you shoulda if you had just jumped one way or the other 10 years ago, you'd know you'd be on a different path 'cause you'd found it. It would've defined itself. Um wrong or right, true or false. 

I was very successful in rom-coms, enjoyed doin 'em. But I was remember feeling like I remember writing myself like Dammit, I feel like, I'm kind of just an entertainer And I was like, "Well, what's wrong with being an entertainer?" That's great value, I love entertaining. That's great. And I was like, "I know," but I said, I'm- I'm- I'm not feeling- I didn't feel like I was growing in my work. And at the time, parallel to my work, the rom-coms, I'd met Camila, we've had our first child. So now my life is vital. I mean, I'm feeling it. I'm- my joy, the ceiling of my joy's much higher, the basement of my anger's much lower, I laugh louder, I love harder, I get angry. I mean, I'm feeling alive. But my work's not feeling that vibrant. My life has got me sweatin' in my boots in a good way, daily. But my work feels like, "oh, I could do that tomorrow." I'm like, okay, that's cool that you've got something you can just feel like you can do tomorrow, but boy, I wish- could I find some work that makes me sweat in my boots like my life does?

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Matthew McConaughey: Well, let's go for it. So yeah, that's in those dramas I want to do. Hey, agent, what about this? What about this? "They don't want you." Well, I'll- I'll take a- I'll take a um I'll take a huge pay cut. I'll take a- a-an eighth of what that- what my- They still don't want you. Dammit, I can't do what I wanna do. Blocked, blocked, blocked, no, no, no, no, no. And then I said, "Okay, if I can't do what I- what I wanna do, what if I stopped doing what I've been doing? Even though it's paying my- doing more than paying my rent, it's afforded me a lifestyle. 

So I quit doing the rom-coms, and that was a tough decision. 

There were tears, many tears hit the ground over that because was I taking a one-way ticket out of Hollywood? Who the hell was I? What was I thinking? I come from a place- that man I'm- I'm- I'm privileged to be doing what I do I'm happily doing what I do. And my brothers were like, "What is your major malfunction, Matthew? What are you doing?" But they knew the way I said, "This is what I'm going to do," and I'd already talked about it with Camila. She goes, "Okay, we're going to do this. You know you're gonna get wobbly. You're gonna have these days of no structure and no- nothing to look forward to, and you're gonna get a little off balance. We're gonna to stick with it." And I said, "Okay." And I did. 

For the first six months, nothing comes in but rom-coms. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. One comes in at $8 million offer, no. They come back with $10 million offer, no. They come back with a $12.5 million offer, no. They come back with $14.5 million offer. I said, "Let me read it again." So I wasn't so puritanical that the number... I mean that dollar amount came back and I read that script. Same exact words in the $14.5 million offer as were in the $8 million offer. Same exact words. But at that price, it was a better script, okay? So- so it was funnier, I had more angles, yes I could make this work. Anyway, I said no. And when I said no to that, I think for me, and somehow invisibly for the industry, the industry goes, "Oh, he's not bluffing. He's really not doing it." So then nothing comes in. No offers for the next 12 months. I call my agent every week. "Anything?" He says, "Sir, Matthew, I haven't even heard your name." Now I'm thinking, "I did it. I just wrote a ticket out of Hollywood." Now at the same time, I'm gaining a little strength because I'm getting a bit of honor in the endurance, in the sacrifice. I'm feeling like with each day I'm getting another little piece of armor. And that- I just have a hunch there's value at the end of this. Very similar to that Australian year. If I can just go another day, if I outlast this thing, if I out endure this, there's a greater prize at the end. So then I started to kind of get jazzed on this penance I felt like I was- I was paying. I was like, "Give me another day without. Give me another day without." Well, when I got into that mode and felt that way, was really considering other vocations for the rest of my life, what happens? 21 months since I've worked or been in Hollywood, no one knows where the hell I am. I've been- Matthew McConaughey's been forgotten, or at least found anonymity. We haven't seen him. Guess who the new great novel idea for Lincoln Lawyer, Killer Joe, Paperboy, Magic Mike, Mud, True Detective, Dallas Buyers? I was, and I was like, "Yes." And we just, Camila and I packed up our bags and we said, "Let's go hammer 'em. This is what I've been wanting to do, let's go." So I unbranded in that 20-month period, as many of us have had to do in this last 16-month. You unbrand…

Jessi Hempel: Yeah, yeah.

Matthew McConaughey: ...To then rebrand. And I think for all of us out there in this, what is this rebrand phase? Some people have had to just keep their head above water these last 16 months. Other people and companies very early on projected that 18-month and beyond and said, "We're making a pivot early," and it's paying off for them, 'cause they said, "Oh this is- we're now living in the future." They were saying that a year ago, year and a half ago, "This is the new future, let's bet on it." But a lot of people just had to survive. So now we're coming out. Again, how's the world changed? Don't go straight back to how it was 'cause it hasn't, it's not how it was, and it's never gonna be just how it was. What are the opportunities coming out with engagement? Also, knowing that when we think, "I'm the only one confused about where my future is," as we're reengaging, everybody else is still confused about where the hell- everyone needs a little bit of amnesty right now, everyone's gonna be awkward coming out...

Jessi Hempel: Yeah, well that's the truth.

Matthew McConaughey: ...I was socially around some people outside a couple weeks ago and I was like, I'm feeling like, this is weird. I didn't know how to socially engage. So just know that everyone's got that, and that can give you a little bit of relaxation to know that everyone's in a particularly same boat.

Jessi Hempel: Matthew, your own personal goals for the next five years,like what do you- where do you wanna grow? Maybe, particularly, where do you wanna grow that we haven't seen you grow yet?

Matthew McConaughey:  I wanna be more me. I want to invest my time and energy in things that- that- that feed my truest self more. And if they do that, they're gonna feed my family more, and I believe if they do that, it's gonna feed more people. I'm still interested in playing characters and doing films and being part of good stories. At the same time, I'm really saying, questioning, "Well who am in this- in the- in the big show?" This one, called life. That the camera's always on. What am I doing in this take? People ask me all the time, "Hey, you achieved all those 10 goals you wrote down in your book. What are your new 10 goals?" I go, "I haven't achieved all those goals yet." I'm in the midst of achieving, I'm off to a good start." Find a woman for me and keep her, become a father. I'm still in the midst of achieving. 

I want-I'm tryna get my roots to grow wider and deeper at the same time. I believe I'm being called into a leadership role, and I will have to-it will have to in a storytelling role 'cause I love telling stories, and I think I've got a knack for it. I mean, politically, each party thinks they have ownership to certain values that they don't own, you know? We say, "Well, that's mine, so therefore it can't be yours if you think differently." No, these are human values that we all share. So I want to expose those things, those common denominators and values, to myself, my family, and more people. I wanna be- uh do my best to be an example of living them out. And what category or embassy will that be in, as far as what my title or vocation will be? I'm not- I'm not sure yet. It's why I've just- why I've pondered you know, teaching, politics, things like that. I'm not sure what that category is yet. But where I know I need to start and triple down on is right here in my household with my family.

Jessi Hempel: That was the actor Matthew McConaughey. Check out his memoir, Greenlights. It's really worth the read. So this week for our assignment, I want you to describe the very best version of your life five years from now. It's the five-year plan. Now if you really want to get into it, revisit our episode with Debbie Millman from last January. She recommends this exercise. She thinks it's magic, and I do too. I want you to get every single last thing down, from the chair that you're sitting in to the food that you have for breakfast on that day in five years, to the office that you exist in or don't exist in, the work that you are doing, and how it makes you feel. Get it all on paper, no matter how unlikely you actually believe it is to occur. That is part of the magic. 

Then join us for Office Hours on Wednesday to discuss. We'll see you at 3:00 p.m. Eastern, as usual. You can find us on the LinkedIn News page, or email us at hellomonday@linkedin.com and we'll send you a link. Sarah, Michaela, and I will be doing the exercise too and we'll bring our exercises to Office Hours. Hope to see you there. Next week we'll explore our sixth and last big question in the REOPENING series. We'll be talking about how we take risks again. This week we dreamed, next week we're getting practical. Now, to puzzle this out we'll be talking with an inspiring guest, someone I've known for many years, Sukhinder Singh Cassidy. She's just written a book on this topic. 

Now, if you like the show, please rate us and review us. It takes two seconds, and it helps listeners find us.

Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn. The show is produced by Sarah Storm with help from Taisha Henry. Joe DiGiorgi mixed our show. Florencia Iriondo is head of original audio and video. Dave Pond is our technical director. Michaela Greer and Victoria Taylor inspire confidence in all of us. Our music was composed just for us by the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Dan Roth is the editor and chief of LinkedIn. I'm Jessi Hempel. We're back next Monday. Thanks for listening.

Matthew McConaughey: Qualified optimism, which I believe is necessary for survival and thrival, if there's a word...

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Matthew McConaughey: ...which you know I make up words.

Jessi Hempel: I like that one.

Matthew McConaughey: So we call it thrival...

Jessi Hempel: Thrival?

Matthew McConaughey: ....It just came out. (laughing)

Jessi Hempel: I think we need to call the episode "Thrival", frankly, because I...

Matthew McConaughey: "Thrival!"

Jessi Hempel: ...that wraps up what we're doing right here.