Transcript, E209: Daniel Pink on perfecting our timing

Here is the episode, if you'd like to listen:

To share your thoughts or questions about this episode or its transcript, comment on the post, or email the team at hellomonday@linkedin.com.

Network ID:

LinkedIn News.

Jessi Hempel:

From the news team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel, and this is Hello Monday. It's our show about the changing nature of work and how that work is changing us.

A few years ago, my wife and I got into this really bad, let's call it, a pattern of communication. After dinner she asked, as we were getting ready to wind down for the evening; I'd start going through the mail. For whatever reason that season, our electricity bill was climbing like crazy and I'd just get so anxious about it. I remember I'd pick up the bill and shake it in the air, and say, "Frances, how did we spend $400 on electricity?" After a brief freakout, I'd feel kinda better, but then Frances would feel worse because how did we spend that much money on electricity and was it going to cause a problem for us? Her mind would start spinning. She'd be annoyed with me. I'd be annoyed with her. Next thing you know we'd be bickering over little things that didn't matter. Or worse, stewing on opposite sides of the living room.

Pretty quickly we figured out that the problem wasn't us, or even the electricity, it was timing. We were fighting because this stressor hit when we were already exhausted. So we instituted a weekly family meeting. Now we keep this Google doc, where we add to a running agenda of things to discuss; high energy bill, vacation dates, why there's marker on the wall in the hallway. There's always marker on the wall in the hallway.

Every Tuesday from 9:00 to 9:30 AM, Frances and I hold a meeting, often over Zoom. We tick through the list, assigning action items and reporting back. So now I don't have to explode about the energy bill late at night. When I get it, I can just add it to the agenda and know that we will take care of it. It's amazing what a difference timing can make, right? We kinda know that, and yet we devote so little energy to considering timing in most of the things we do.

A few years ago, Dan Pink wrote a book about this. It was called When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing. Dan cam into the studio back then, and on Hello Monday we talked a ton about how to use warning time well. That was a great show, but there's this whole part of that interview that we really didn't emphasize enough. This idea that the more you know how timing works for you and for everyone else around you, the happier and more productive you can be.

Daniel Pink:

What I've discovered in doing this research on timing is that you have questions that are being asked. What's the effect of time of day on our mood? What's the effect of time of day on our performance? How do beginnings effect us? How do midpoints effect us? How do endings effect us? How do groups synchronize in time? And these questions are being asked in multiple disciplines, sometimes identical questions, but people aren't talking to each other. Psychologists aren't talking to the economists, the economists aren't talking to the anthropologists, the anthropologists aren't talking to the chrono-biologists. And I felt if you went wide enough and deep enough into this research you could begin to piece together the evidence-based ways to actually plan out your day, among other parts of your life, in a more evidence-based way.

Jessi Hempel:

This topic is really top of mind for me right now because my time is tight. I rarely have the bandwidth to work when I'm not at work, because the kids are so young and they require so much of me. I need to make the most of these minutes. So I'm bringing back Dan's conversation from 2019. As Dan and I talk, I want you to listen for his advice on when other people are likely to have the best focus and brainpower; It'll help you understand yourself. But also, you're gonna wanna listen because it may influence when you choose to make appointments with other people, like your doctor or your lawyer. After this conversation, stick around, because we're bringing back the book set with Scott Olster. But for now, here's Dan.

Daniel Pink:

At this particular level, wha- what- what we realize is- is something monumentally important often overlooked, which is that our brainpower does not remain constant over the course of a day. Now, we see that in chronobiology, we see that in research in many of the medical fields; we see that even in research in social psychology and economics, in experimental settings where you ask people to do certain kinds of tasks or solve different kinds of problems. That seems, to me, a pretty big deal.

Jessi Hempel:

I mean, that seems to me, also, like common sense. I think about myself. Like, here we are. We are talking, Dan, mid-morning.

Daniel Pink:

Yup.

Jessi Hempel:

It's prime time for us to be talking when it comes to my brain.

Daniel Pink:

Totally.

Jessi Hempel:

If we were having this conversation this afternoon around 3:30, I would need a couple of cups of coffee to be this sharp.

Daniel Pink:

Right, probably me too. But I think that in many cases in organizations, we're not intentional about that. We don't think about that. We basically assume that- The way we schedule a day, typically, is that we assume that our brainpower is constant throughout the day. That is not true.

There are material differences in performance based on time of day. And you see this again in a whole array of research. So you look at things like, I'm gonna give you an example, standardized testing. There's an important study out of Denmark showing that kids who take standardized tests in the afternoon score as if they'd missed two weeks of school, versus kids who take tests in the morning. Okay. So all of a sudden you've called into question, yet again, the value of standardized tests as a policy-making tool.

You see it in the medical profession, big time. So, I mean I- You- you- You know what I'm talking about?

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah, but I would love for you to articulate it for our listeners. And I should say, I, you know, I- I recently had to have surgery, and after readying your book, I made sure that I was first on the surgeon's list so that it would be first thing in the morning.

Daniel Pink:

Okay. You seriously have kept me in the writing business two more weeks with that.

Jessi Hempel:

(Laughs).

Daniel Pink:

Because, like, that to me is the- one of the most important things. If you can avoid it, do not go into the hospital in the afternoon. The evidence is overwhelming. No on in my family is allowed to have an important medical appointment or go to the hospital in the afternoon. The evidence is overwhelming.

Jessi Hempel:

And what is that evidence?

Daniel Pink:

(Scoffs). Okay, let's talk about hospital-acquired infections, which is a topic everybody likes to discuss, right? First line of defense is hand washing in hospitals. Hand washing in hospitals deteriorates significantly in the afternoon. This is the work of Katy Milkman, Jason Riis, and Hengchen Dai, who looked- charted this at several thousand hospitals. Huge drop off in hand washing in hospitals in the afternoon.

Look at anesthesia errors. Four times more likely at 3:00 PM than at 9:00 AM. There was just a paper that came out maybe four weeks ago, as we were talking here, about prescribing unnecessary opioids. Much more likely in afternoon appointments versus morning appointments. You look at the prescribing of unnecessary antibiotics, which is one reason why we have hospital-squired infections. Much more likely in afternoon exams versus morning exams.

Let's- Should we talk about my colonoscopy?

Jessi Hempel:

(Laughs). I don't know, what?

Daniel Pink:

Let's talk about it. What- I had the same- You know, I'm at the age where I had to have a colonoscopy, so I go- I had a colonoscopy at 9:00 in the morning. Why? Because there's research showing that doctors find twice as many polyps in morning appointments versus afternoon appointments for the same population. So, again, there are material differences in performance based on time of a day, and we haven't reckoned with that as bosses, as writers, as contributors to teams, as medical professionals, as patients, as spouses, as- as- as parents, as teachers, as students.

Jessi Hempel:

Okay. So, Dan, I understand that if I am going to take on something significant, schedule myself for surgery, maybe schedule that big review with my boss, I'm gonna avoid the afternoons. But if I, as a professional, want to do my best work all day, is there a way that I can make the afternoon work for me?

Daniel Pink:

Yes. And- and again, I don't wanna say that the morning is right for everybody because it's more nuanced; it's more nuanced for that. Here's what we know, and I'll- and I'll- I'll steer this ship to actually answer your question here in a moment. Here's what we know. There's this-

So we talk about, "I'm a morning person," "I'm an evening person," all right? It sounds like folklore, but it's not. There's a whole field of chrono-biology that has explored the concept of chronotype, which is basically your propensity. Do you naturally wake up early and go to sleep early? Do you naturally wake up late and go to sleep late? Um, what we know in the distribution is that about 15% of us are very strong morning people, 20% of us are very strong evening people. Two-thirds of us are in the middle, but we sorta lean toward the morning side. We sorta lean towards that lark versus the owl side, and so-

And what we know is that- is this, that- that about 80% of us go through the day in this order: peak, trough, recovery. We have our peak early in the day, we have a trough in the middle of the day, then we have a recovery later in the day. Owls, the 20% of us who are hardcore night people; very different. They hit their peak much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much, much later in the day. So if you were an owl and I were an owl- I'm not. I don't think either one of us are. But if- But if you- But if you were talking to a hardcore owl, um, that person is gonna be less sharp at this time of day that we're talking, Jessi, than he or she would if you were talking to them at 8:00 at night.

Jessi Hempel:

Right. So that group of people must have a set of strategies to navigate a world that is really just not exactly designed for them to succeed.

Daniel Pink:

A disproportionate number of them become self-employed because they can't abide by the traditional kinds of schedules. Or they suffer. They suffer from sleep deprivation and under-performance.

Jessi Hempel:

Is there a way that you can train your biology into being something that you're not?

Daniel Pink:

Barely. I mean, really not. These are, you know, heavily imprinted. It's like, you know. It's, uh... So our- our chronotype changes over- over time. So little kids are very lark-y. People from the mid-teens to the mid-twenties have a period in their life where they move much toward greater lateness; and then, in general, most people, many people return to lark-y-ness over time. But it's very difficult to do.

It's like, if your- if you naturally wake up late and go to sleep late, uh, an 8:00 staff meeting is never going to be great for you. An 8:00 AM staff meeting is never going to be great for you, and so you have to- What- what should be happening is that the organization should be accommodating the individual rather than the reverse.

Jessi Hempel:

We're going to take a quick break here. When we come back, more on how to get timing right for anything and everything, with Dan Pink.

Okay, we're back. Before we dive in, thanks to listeners who reached out to share thoughts of the show with me. Your feedback is helping us improve. If you've listened for awhile and you'd be willing to spend 20 minutes on the phone with me answering a few questions, email me at hellomonday@linkedin.com. Thank you.

When Dan and I spoke, my son Jude was still very little. I was in that early period of parenting when I hadn't quite worked out my new identity; hadn't quite figured out how I functioned as both a colleague and a parent. And also, Jude woke up so early, like 5:00 AM every morning like clockwork.

Daniel Pink:

Perfect. So you got about, like, 11 more years of lark-y-ness.

Jessi Hempel:

Could you just lie to me?

Daniel Pink:

(Laughs).

Jessi Hempel:

Boil it down a little bit.

Daniel Pink:

10 more years.

Jessi Hempel:

(Laughs).

Daniel Pink:

Um, no. So, so little kids, very lark-y. They get up- Or elementary school students; they can start school pretty early. But there's a biological change that occurs in, you know, the early to mid-teens, where we think- Older people think these teenagers are lazy. No. They're actually- Their chronotype is changing, often only for, uh, a ten-year duration or so. But they just naturally wake up late and go to sleep late. And what- And so what you have is you have the American Academy of Pediatrics has, several years ago, said, implored school districts around America, do not start school for teenagers before 8:30 in the morning. Don't do it. It's contraindicated by everything we ped- I mean, like... You trust your pediatrician, right?

Jessi Hempel:

Yes.

Daniel Pink:

I love- I mean, my- my kids- My kids are actually aging out pediatrician, but we love our pediatrician. We revere our pediatrician. So imagine your pediatrician and my kids' pediatrician, and other pediatricians in America, linking arms marching down Fifth Avenue, saying, "Don't start school before 8:30." And yet most districts ignore that. Um, and the evidence is just overwhelming.

Jessi Hempel:

Well-

Daniel Pink:

And so California, God bless them, signed into- Governor Newsom signed into law, um, a provision saying, and there's some exceptions, but in general, school should start no earlier than 8:30 for- for teenagers.

Jessi Hempel:

Well-

Daniel Pink:

Governor Brown vetoed that same piece of legislation though.

Jessi Hempel:

Or, let's talk about, say the company that I work in. I am part of a global news team.

Daniel Pink:

Yes.

Jessi Hempel:

We have reporters on the ground working in Australia, Japan, UK, San Francisco. We all need to get together on video conference, and we do many times a week. The time never works for everyone.

Daniel Pink:

Exactly.

Jessi Hempel:

Is there- Is there something that you would suggest?

Daniel Pink:

Yeah. I- I- I would. First- first of all, let's- let's diagnose the problem. Let- let's look at the problem at the root level and recognize that it is a problem that doesn't have an easy solution. So let's go back, let's seriously talk about it in evolutionary terms. We have a brain that became our brain during a certain period of human civ- of civ- of barely human civilization, of- of- of existence. Um, and the time that our brain evolved, there were not hours, let alone time zones. It was impossible for- There were no podcasts, Jessi, believe it or not-

Jessi Hempel:

No, (laughs).

Daniel Pink:

Because it was impossible for anybody to hear your voice that wasn't within the immediate sound of your voice. So our brains are not designed to have conversations with people in different time zones. All right? So our brains are just not equipped for that kind of thing, so it's never gonna be perfect.

I think that there are two modest band-aid solutions here, one of them is this. My belief has always been that we meet, we have too many meetings and too many conference calls in organizations, and so a way to solve this particular problem is as follows. You look at that conference call as a- as a collection of tasks to be done, questions to be asked, information to be discovered, whatever. And you say, in that basket of tasks, what can we do asynchronously? And there probably are some things you can do asynchronously. Take those out of the basket and have people do it asynchronously.

So let's say your- your team of journalists, say. Let's, um, let's talk about, uh, some story ideas. Let's discuss some story ideas. Instead of generating the ideas in real time, make those asynchronous, have people generate the ideas, share the ideas, and then do something- Then discuss them synchronously, which you actually have to do.

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Daniel Pink:

So make some things that- Take what's asynchronous and allow people to do it at their best time. The only-

The other thing which is is a band-aid is spread the pain. Just don't make the people in-

Jessi Hempel:

Yes.

Daniel Pink:

Australia, uh, have to do all their calls at 6:00 in the morning so the New Yorkers can do it when they're fresh and ready.

Jessi Hempel:

And also, not all work is the same, right? There is work that takes a lot of fire power and thinking-

Daniel Pink:

Absolutely.

Jessi Hempel:

There is work that is-

Daniel Pink:

This is really important.

Jessi Hempel:

Right? And so how do we figure out when to do what work?

Daniel Pink:

That's a really, really important point. So among the things we know about the day, as I said, our brainpower changes over the course of a day, the changes are significant. But, just exactly as you say, Jessi, the right time to do something really depends on what you're doing. And so here's what we know. So go back to this, this pattern of the day that we have. Peak, trough, recovery. Peak early, trough in the middle of the day, recovery later in the day for 80% of us. The owls out there, who might be listening to this at 2:00 in the morning, you should be doing your work because you're at your peak right now.

Jessi Hempel:

(Laughs).

Daniel Pink:

You have your peak at, you know, much, much later in the day. But here's the thing, during our peak, that's when- The key aspect of the peak, period, whether it's early in the day or late, is that that's when we are most vigilant. What does it mean to be vigilant? Vigilance means you're able to bat away distractions. So that's when the research shows we should be doing, what's called, sort of broad-heading of our analytic work, which is basically work that requires heads-down, focus, attention. Um, analyzing data, going over the steps of a strategy. I would- I would actually put writing in that category, because as a writer, you know that the moment you sit down at the keyboard the whole universe begins conspiring for ways to distract you.

Jessi Hempel:

It's called the internet.

Daniel Pink:

Yeah. So you wanna be at your point of lowest, least distractibility. So we should be doing our analytic work during the peak. During that trough period, early to mid afternoon, what we should be doing is we should be, where we can, grouping more of our administrative work. Work that doesn't require massive brain power; answering our routine emails, filling out expense reports, whatever. And here's the problem- Listen, I'm a sinner. You know, I'm trying to be saved but I know that I'm- I'm flawed and I need salvation. I- I try not to do this, which is go back to my morning routine. But on writing days what I would sometimes do is the first thing I'd do when I'd come into my office at 8:45, showered and caffeinated and well-informed on the sports world, is check my email, which is a stupid thing to do.

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Daniel Pink:

Because I have this fleeting period of my peak vigilance and I'm squandering it answering emails. So I should probably shift those to that trough period. Now, the recovery period- And again, there are changes in mood. Our mood peaks, it drops, and then it returns. The recovery period, which for a lot of us is late in the afternoon, early in the evening; our mood is up but our vigilance is not, so that makes it a good time for things that require more mental looseness.

Jessi Hempel:

Okay.

Daniel Pink:

The mental looseness would be things like, um, let's brainstorm some ideas. You've been in brainstorming session where people are hyper-vigilant, right? "That's stupid. That's a stupid idea." You want people to be a little bit looser, and so what you see, you see some really interesting experimental evidence. Is if you give people analytic problems that 80%, about 80% of us get those, are more likely to get those right in the morning and wrong later in the day, but owls are more likely to get them wrong earlier and right later. When you give people more, um, what are called insight problems, which are problems that have non-obvious solutions or require diversion thinking or, like, don't bend to mathematical logic, you and I are more likely to get those questions right later in the day-

Jessi Hempel:

Hmm.

Daniel Pink:

And wrong earlier in the day.

Jessi Hempel:

Hmm.

Daniel Pink:

So, so what we should be doing is our insight work later in the day. And- and- and getting back to me for a moment here, and my schedule. So what I do is I go and I try to do, on writing days, I do my writing in the morning. I don't bring my phone with me into the- into my office. I don't open up my email. I give myself a word count, and I hit that word count, and until I hit that word count I don't do anything else. Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

Okay. So let's go back to mornings.

Daniel Pink:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

So if a lot-

Daniel Pink:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

If you are a lark, and I like that language.

Daniel Pink:

Yeah. Or in the middle, as third bird who needs...

Jessi Hempel:

Or a third bird.

Daniel Pink:

Yeah. Because I'm not a full-fledged lark. I'm, like, if you look at the distribution. The distribution isn't a perfect bell curve at all. It's lumpier than that. So you have- You have this really hardcore group, around 20%, on the owls, and then you have people who are- who are affirmed larks. But then you have a lot of people who kind of tilt toward that, and I'm in the middle who tilts towards lark-ness.

Jessi Hempel:

Okay, so here's another question about mornings. You talk about the importance of moments that allow us to reset, to sort of clean the slate-

Daniel Pink:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

And start over. New Year's is a great one.

Daniel Pink:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. Set your resolutions.

Daniel Pink:

Yeah.

Jessi Hempel:

But you can also create your own resetting moments.

Daniel Pink:

Totally.

Jessi Hempel:

Right. Psychologically. So if you wake up and get a really bad start on the morning. Let's say your- your phone which is your alarm, which is true for you I can see, starts blinking at you that, you know, you've got a text message from some relative, and bang, you've gone down the left shute instead of the right shute; you're distracted. The day has started that way. How do you reset?

Daniel Pink:

Let me see here. What would be something? Let's say that... So let's say that one of my daughters were to text me early in the morning and she had some kind of problem. First of all, on that one, I would, like, okay, that's- that's a priority. That's more important than me hitting my 900-word mark today. So I would take care of that.

And let's say it meant that I didn't get into my office until, say, 11:30. Um, that would be a bummer, but all I would do is say, you know what... In those kinds of circumstances I would say, okay, here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna, for today, I'm gonna refine the goal a little bit. Right? We're gonna go for 400 words, or whatever, 450 words. And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna recognize I'm going into this trough period, because I'm starting writing at 11:30, and by 11:30 I'm starving I'm sure.

So 11:30 I go in there, I probably just say, okay, I'm gonna reboot. I'm gonna have lunch or something like that, and then I go into my office and say, okay, we're gonna turn the dial back, 450 words. You're doing it at a sub-optimal time, so what I would do in that circumstance, and this- this makes sense, because I can think of scenarios where I've done this. I use- Okay, this is a little bit rigid, but it works for me. I use a- the Pomodoro technique. You know the Pomodoro technique?

Jessi Hempel:

No.

Daniel Pink:

Oh my gosh, Jessi.

Jessi Hempel:

(Laugh).

Daniel Pink:

Take notes. So Pomodoro is the Italian word for tomato, and there used to be and I guess is in other places, these kitchen timers in the shape of a tomato that one would twist, (makes twisting noise), and then, you know-

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah.

Daniel Pink:

Time your stuff for the kitchen. And so this is a technique based on that, where what you do is you say... You do a particular task for, you can set the time, for 25 minutes or something like that. And in the afternoons I would do that, so I have a thing on my computer. 25 minutes, and I just set it and I just go. And then it goes off, after 25 minutes I take a five-minute break, and then I do another one. It's like intervals.

Jessi Hempel:

Right.

Daniel Pink:

Take- Do another one. Take 25 minutes, five-minute break, 25 minutes, five-minute break, and I would do that to just power my way through those 450 words.

Thanks for having me, it was a lot of fun to talk to you.

Jessi Hempel:

Um, and I'm glad that we talked in the morning.

Daniel Pink:

Me too, because I would have been a wreck later in the day.

Jessi Hempel:

That was Dan Pink. I always love having Dan in the studio, he has been back since. Go back into our archives and look up all of our past episodes. And if you want to read more about this book, check out When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing.

And this week we bring back our new segment on books. A reminder that there are so many important books that come out all of the time but we can't bring every author on the show. We want to make sure that you, listeners, are aware of all the big ideas, the things that people around you are going to be talking about and that are going to shape business and the conversations you have in the office in the months to come.

So we're bringing on my colleague, Scott Olster, who you have heard from before, to offer semi-frequent recommendations. Scott reads a ton, he helps to organize our book coverage here at LinkedIn, he sees just about everything. Um, here's Scott. Hey, Scott.

Scott Olster:

Hey, Jessi.

Jessi Hempel:

Okay, so Scott, when exactly do you have so much time to read?

Scott Olster:

(Laughs). Oh, man. I- I guess I have to make the time, you know? It's just all in those extra spaces, right? Spaces between meetings, spaces over the weekend where you just maybe perhaps wanna take a break from things like Netflix or walking your dog. You know, reading can go in many different corners of your life.

Jessi Hempel:

Are you a nighttime reader or a morning reader?

Scott Olster:

Oh, I think I'm definitely a nighttime reader.

Jessi Hempel:

(Laughs). Well, I'm a morning reader, so there you go. Okay, so what is at the top of your reading pile this week?

Scott Olster:

Yeah, this week it's all about the Courage of Compassion by Robin Steinberg.

Jessi Hempel:

So talk to us about who our author is, first of all?

Scott Olster:

Yeah. Robin Steinberg is, I would say, one of the major pioneers in public defense and criminal justice reform. She's devoted her life to being a public defender, and to advocating for people who are within the criminal justice system who might otherwise be ignored. And she's founded a number of different organizations around this, most notably the Bronx Defenders. The Bronx Defenders championed this concept of holistic defense, which basically means that what happens in court isn't the only thing that effects people who are put through the system; that there's a whole slew of challenges associated with that.

Jessi Hempel:

Uh, Scott, I feel like these topics are so important and topics we care a lot about. At Hello Monday, in fact, we had a great episode on, uh, an aspect of court reform, um, that looked at restorative justice earlier this year. Our guest was Victoria Pratt. Um, in this book, what in particular is compelling for our audience?

Scott Olster:

So Robin structures the book as a memoir, but she uses the memoir format to talk about two critical questions when it comes to public defense and criminal justice reform. The first is very simple and it's a question that she's probably received throughout her 35-year career, and it's simply how do you defend these people? And what she means when she says that is, you know, these are people who have been accused of really serious crimes; uh, crimes like murder, like rape, like child abuse. And her way of approaching this question, which is something she's clearly grappled with throughout her career, is simply about seeing the humanity in everyone, and that's where the compassion comes from.

So for her, it's all about asking this other question, which is should somebody be judged and written off entirely because of what they did on the very worst day of their life, the very worst moment in their life? Should we write someone off entirely? It's a difficult question to answer because, like I said, the nature of some of these crimes, they're very severe. But for her, her way of being able to defend these people is to see the entire person, not to excuse their behavior or to write it off, but to help find an explanation for that behavior.

Jessi Hempel:

So, Scott, are there lessons in this book that you can draw out that apply to all of our lives more broadly?

Scott Olster:

100%. So, for me, when I was making my way through this book, I was thinking of all the ways that every single one of us encounter these moments with other people; people we may struggle with, people who may make decisions that we don't necessarily agree with. And for Robin Steinberg, it was all about letting me see and examine the conditions that led to this behavior, that led to this moment, and can I see the human behind those actions?

Jessi Hempel:

Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay, so final question. We're gonna do this same final question every time we do the book segment. Scott, leave us with one tiny detail, something you're going to remember from this book.

Scott Olster:

One of the things from Steinberg's book, uh, that has stuck with me is this quote that she gives from Scarlett Lewis, and Scarlett Lewis is a mother who lost her six-year-old child, uh, at Sandy Hook Elementary School in 2012. And Lewis, I believe this was from an interview with NPR, and Lewis said that there are only two kinds of people in this world; there are good people and there are good people in pain. And for me that encapsulates the heart of Steinberg's narrative, the heart of her career perhaps, which is just that can we see that greater humanity in people?

Jessi Hempel:

People in pain. That is a somber note and an important note to land on. Scott, please keep reading, um, because we keep appreciating your perspective on the books that matter most this year, and we'll talk to you the next time we our book segment.

Scott Olster:

That sounds great. Thanks so much, Jessi.

Jessi Hempel:

Now, my weekly reminder to join us for Office Hours. Sarah is away this week. I hope she's having a great time on vacation. Michaela Greer, friend of the podcast, is stepping in once again for Office Hours, so come hang out with me and Michaela. We'll get together as we always do, Wednesday, 3:00 PM Eastern on the LinkedIn News page. If you can't find us, email us for a link at hellomonday@linkedin.com and I'll hit you back. You can also continue this conversation in our Hello Monday group on LinkedIn. To join, click from the show notes.

Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn News. Sarah Storm produces our show. It's engineered and mixed by Assaf Gidron. Our theme music was composed just for us by the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Rafa Farihah, Lolia Briggs, Wallace Truesdale, Kaniya Rogers, and Michaela Greer help us construct our sense of self and they always get timing right. Enrique Montalvo is our executive producer. Dave Pond is head of news production. Courtney Coupe is head of original programming. Dan Roth is the editor in chief of LinkedIn. I'm Jessi Hempel, we'll be back next Monday. Thanks for listening.