Bridging Divides: Dov Baron on How Curiosity Shapes Leadership in Polarized Times

"If you don’t set boundaries or say no, you might fit in, but you won’t truly belong. It’s crucial to understand the difference—fitting in often requires changing who you are, while belonging means finding a place where you can be your full, authentic self.” Dov Baron

Dov Baron is a leadership consultant and speaker known for guiding leaders to find deeper meaning and fulfillment in their work. In this conversation, Dov highlights the importance of distinguishing between belonging and fitting in, emphasizing that true belonging allows individuals to embrace their authentic selves while fitting in requires sacrificing one's identity. Dov also underscores the necessity of curiosity to foster understanding and compassion in a polarized environment, advocating for leaders to approach differences with an open mind and a willingness to learn.

Stephen Matini: Since we first met, there’s been one word that stands out for both of us: belonging. I’m curious—why does it resonate so deeply with you?

DB: Belonging is really important to me, and on a very personal level, it’s meaningful because I never truly felt like I belonged. I didn’t feel a sense of belonging as a kid.

From my own experience, I see belonging as more important than ever, especially since the pandemic. During the lockdown, I warned CEOs not to cut back on our work together, even though they expected things to quickly return to normal. But normal isn’t coming back. What we’ve learned is that humans are inherently tribal—we crave connection and community, and this need has only intensified after the isolation of COVID.

We need connection with other human beings, and the lack of it affects us deeply—impacting our nervous system, limbic system, gut biome, and more. Psychologically, we’re now starving for community after being cut off for so long. We’ve all retreated into our own bubbles, and if we’re not careful, people may start drifting into communities where they don’t truly belong.

When they asked, "What do you mean?" I explained that people may end up in communities where they have to contort themselves to fit in. Let’s face it—you and I both know that in the corporate world, it’s always been about fitting in. The goal was to get the right people on the bus in the right seat, but that often means you have to distort yourself to fit into that role.

Belonging, on the other hand, means I can show up as my full self. Whether I’m gay, straight, wearing a dress and a mustache, artistic, creative, or highly intellectual—whatever shade or flavor a person brings, that’s where they belong. 

But in a culture focused on fitting in, we end up disenfranchising parts of ourselves. We have to suppress, hide, or distort parts of who we are just to fit in. So belonging is incredibly important now, more than ever. It’s always been vital because we are tribal beings, and it’s deeply personal for me because I never felt like I belonged when I was young.

SM: When did you start feeling like you belonged?

DB: Probably not until my early to mid-40s. 

SM: And what happened? 

DB: I got married to my bride, whom I’ve been with for 27 years, when I was 39. She was the first person I truly felt I belonged with.

In relationships, people often have very different ideas about what freedom really means. To me, freedom is access to more of myself. The more I can fully be me, the freer I am. And in this relationship with this woman, I discovered parts of myself I didn’t even know I had permission to express. That was the beginning—the freedom of being with her. She was so powerfully grounded in her own space that it gave me permission to stop doing the things I used to do in relationships. I started to feel like I belonged.

But it was also around that time, at age 39, after 20 years of personal work with therapists and mentors, that I became comfortable with being a polymath. I wasn’t specialized in a single area, but I knew a vast amount across many different fields. I started surrounding myself with other polymaths.

Belonging, for me, meant finding a tribe of polymaths—people with incredible specialties who also have deep expertise in many other areas. Being around them made me feel like I belonged. That was the beginning, and that’s where I live now, surrounded by people like that.

SM: If I understood correctly, you start to belong when you have the license to be yourself, or when someone gives you the opportunity to be yourself.

DB: I don’t think anyone gives it to you. I believe you have to give yourself permission not to distort or deny parts of who you are and to let go of people or groups you once thought you wanted to be part of. This is the challenge we see today with the highly polarized, partisan political climate. People who used to be friends can no longer talk to each other because of political differences.

The real question is: Can I be my full self, and can I allow you to be your full self? If I can’t be all of me, or if I feel the need to put you in your place, then that’s not my tribe. 

I always tell people, my religion is curiosity. If I’m going to live in alignment with that curiosity—if I’m going to eat, sleep, and breathe it—then I need to show up fully as myself. That’s my responsibility.

On the flip side, others may want to box me into something, and that’s not where I belong. I know I belong where I don’t have to deny, repress, or hide any part of myself to be with you, while still being respectful, of course.

SM: How do you respond to those who say it’s easier for you to be authentic because you work independently?

DB: I respond with, "If you don’t feel like you belong, you should be somewhere else." I know that might sound like an easy answer, but it’s a straightforward solution because there are companies out there that will value you, no matter who you are.

For me, the key isn’t in saying, "Well, I can’t leave." It’s that you haven’t yet taken ownership of your specialization and your power. When you do take ownership of that, you can go anywhere. 

If you’re in a place where you have to suppress parts of yourself, that’s too high a price to pay for a salary. It means you’re putting on a professional mask, sacrificing your personal authenticity just to fit in. 

If you’re working somewhere that forces you to suppress your true self, there are two things to consider. First, look at the environment—if it’s a place where you can’t be authentic, that’s a red flag. But secondly, look at yourself. Why are you so willing to suppress who you are? That’s a question in itself.

And if you’re frustrated with a place that makes you feel inauthentic, what part of yourself are you not bringing forward? What discomfort are you avoiding? You need to examine what you’re not facing, because in some way, you’re enabling this dynamic. What’s so magnificent about you that you’re allowing yourself to be shoved into a corner?

SM: Maybe one of the reasons that happens is because, to varying degrees, we all fear that if we set boundaries or say no, we won’t belong.

DB: If you don’t set boundaries or say no, you might fit in, but you won’t truly belong. It’s crucial to understand the difference—fitting in often requires changing who you are, while belonging means finding a place where you can be your full, authentic self.

A big part of my work focuses on what I call the "emotional source code"—understanding the layers of meaning we assign to everything. The words we use often carry personal meanings that others might not share. A major issue today is that we impose our interpretations onto others, assuming we know their intent. 

When someone—whether it’s your boss, a colleague, or anyone else—uses a term, the best response is, "What do you mean by that?" You might discover ill intent, or you might find they’re being playful. But don’t judge based on your assumptions, because nothing has inherent meaning except what we assign to it.

This is why questioning our own interpretations is so vital. It’s not about finding the "truth," but recognizing that what we believe is simply our perspective. If we don’t question it, we risk mistaking it for reality.

SM: How do you stay true to yourself in a group or organization that assigns specific meanings to certain words?

DB: In my tribe, we all know that we might say things considered "inappropriate" in the wider world, but that doesn’t mean we lack discernment. I tailor my language depending on the context, not out of fear of being canceled, but because I understand that people assign specific meanings to words.

When speaking, it’s essential to be clear and explain any jargon or uncommon terms. This isn’t about dumbing down—it’s about making sure your message is understood. For example, if I say, "Polarization is ubiquitous," and leave it at that, it may seem like I’m just using a big word. But if I add, "meaning it’s everywhere," I’ve clarified the meaning and made the conversation more inclusive.

We should approach potentially sensitive topics the same way—by explaining and providing context. If someone is offended by what you say, it’s worth examining why. Often, we hold onto meanings without questioning them. This isn’t about changing your beliefs but about being curious enough to explore different perspectives.

Curiosity is vital for growth. It challenges our assumptions and helps us see beyond our own biases. The only way to develop as individuals and leaders is by embracing this openness. When you set aside rigid beliefs and remain curious, you allow yourself to grow and find a true sense of belonging—without distorting who you are to fit in.

SM: As you’re speaking, I’m thinking about other words that seem important to you: integrity and purpose. Do they play a role before everything we’ve discussed?

DB: If you and I walked around the city and asked, "Do you have integrity?" almost everyone would say yes. But integrity means nothing if you don’t understand what you’re integral to. It’s not inherently good or bad—it’s about your commitment to what you say you value. 

If you don’t know your purpose, then what are you integral to? Most people say, "I do what I say," but haven’t really examined why they say what they do. This is why clients work with me—they’re brilliant and successful, but they haven’t faced the kind of deep, curious questioning that pushes them to explore the core of who they are. 

When I ask, "What’s your purpose?" many respond with something that sounds like a mission statement. They think they know it because they’ve read Simon Sinek’s Start with Why. But here’s the thing: the title itself is telling you—you’re just starting. You’re not there yet. Purpose isn’t something you construct; it comes from deep self-examination. It’s born out of your pain.

Your true purpose is tied to your pain. As Joseph Campbell said, "The treasure you seek is in the cave you fear to enter." But many people avoid that cave, trying to solve this intellectually instead of diving into the emotional and spiritual work. That’s why they feel unfulfilled, even after seeing top coaches or attending Tony Robbins events—they haven’t done the deep work of letting go of the false identities they’ve built.

If you want real innovation or enlightenment, the path is the same: destruction. It’s about burning down the old beliefs that keep you stuck. I’m not talking about destroying your business. In fact, you’ll likely become more successful. 

I tell clients, "I’m not here to make you more successful, but it’s a bonus that comes with the territory." What truly matters is that you’ll feel fulfilled and aligned with your real purpose. But that means letting go of the identities you’ve carried around for years.

We all cling to these constructed identities and build our purpose around them, claiming it’s integrity. But if you haven’t questioned your identity, that purpose is rooted in a false self. To find your true purpose, you have to be willing to put down the weight of who you think you are and step into the unknown.

SM: Last time you mentioned that enlightenment is a destructive process, which I loved. But what is a healthy way to stay in that pain?

DB: Let me be clear: nobody wants to stay in pain. I didn’t want to stay in it when I was there, and I’ve faced it many times. It’s like putting your hand on a hot plate—you naturally pull away because pain triggers the urge to escape. But the solution isn’t avoiding pain; it’s about becoming anti-fragile. That’s the key concept here. 

I’ve been a bodybuilder for years, and I’ve seen this play out in the gym. There’s a guy who shows up every day I’m there, putting in the same hours. Yet, despite his consistent effort, he doesn’t change physically. Why? He never increases the weight. He’s stuck doing the same routine, avoiding discomfort. His body has adapted, but he hasn’t grown because he’s not willing to embrace the pain.

Growth requires pushing past the comfort zone—running a little longer, holding a pose a bit deeper, adding more weight. This discomfort is what leads to progress. The difference between resilience and anti-fragility is crucial. Resilience is getting knocked down and getting back up again, but that’s just enduring. Anti-fragility is getting knocked down and asking, "How can I get up stronger?”

Your muscles are a perfect example—they need to be torn and broken down to grow. That soreness you feel after a workout? It’s a sign of growth, a reason to celebrate. Pain isn’t something to fear; it’s a signal that you’re evolving and getting stronger. Embrace it, because it’s leading you toward an outcome you can’t reach without stepping into discomfort and becoming anti-fragile.

SM: You’ve shared a lot of powerful ingredients in your approach. I’m curious—where does kindness fit into this recipe?

DB: If you want to insult me, call me nice. If you want to compliment me, call me kind. "Nice" is an insult—NICE stands for Neurotic, Insecure, Controlling Emotions. Kindness, on the other hand, is something we’ve been talked out of.

I believe with every fiber of my being that our true nature is kindness, but most people confuse kindness with niceness. They’ll say, "I’m just being kind." No, you’re not—you’re lying. When people say, "I didn’t want to be unkind," what they really mean is they didn’t want to tell the truth. 

If you have a major decision to make, would you go to a friend who’s always nice or to a friend who loves you, cares about you, and tells you the truth? You’d go to the kind, truthful friend because niceness doesn’t help in important decisions.

In my 20s, I used to say I was brutally honest. In reality, I was just brutal. I lacked kindness. Kindness is about compassion, caring, and love, but without lying. Kindness doesn’t mean delivering the truth with a hammer—you can be gentle. 

To me, kindness boils down to this: I need to remember that everyone I meet, no matter how happy or miserable they appear, is in some kind of pain. They might wear a magnificent mask or a mask they don’t even know they have, but everyone is struggling with something. Everyone wants to feel better about something.

So I approach people from a place of compassion. I’m not here to make anyone feel worse or rub salt in their wounds. I want to understand them and discover what’s going on. Why are they behaving this way? It’s because they’re in pain.  When someone attacks you, it’s not because they’re a bad person—it’s because they’re hurting, and they see you as a potential source of more pain.

It’s important to realize that everyone is in some kind of pain. Have compassion for that and ask yourself, "I wonder what kind of pain this person is in. I wonder why they’re acting this way." Curiosity is my religion—be deeply curious about them. When you do that, people tend to open up and are less likely to be offended.

Remember, attack is a form of defense, and defense is a form of attack. If someone is attacking you, it’s because they feel threatened. You might say, "But I wasn’t attacking them." I get it—that wasn’t your intent, but intent isn’t relevant here. What matters is how they feel.

SM: How do you reconcile these different elements when they seem to conflict with each other?

DB: Today, we often focus on content rather than context. To understand context, which provides deeper meaning, we need to look at all the pieces of the puzzle. Imagine the whole puzzle is one big sky, and you’re holding just one piece with a bit of blue on it. That’s only a small part of the picture—there’s so much more to see.

If someone listens to this conversation but leaves after 10 minutes because they heard a word they didn’t like, they miss the context entirely. Even if you have doubts or discrepancies while listening, by the end, you can reflect on what came together and what made sense.

But if you take things out of context, the whole meaning is lost. That’s why it’s crucial to listen to the entire conversation. And even better—listen twice. On the second listen, you’re less influenced by your own biases, and you start to hear things differently. So thank you for bringing this up. It’s a really important point.

SM: You’ve shared many powerful elements—integrity, purpose, meaning, belonging, kindness, and more. For our readers, which of these ingredients is the best starting point?

DB: Without a doubt, it’s curiosity. I sign off everything I do with, “Stay curious, my friends. Stay curious.” My background is very philosophical and spiritual, long before I became a psychologist and got involved in neuroscience, quantum physics, geopolitics, and all the other fields. There’s a philosophical understanding that life itself is on a quest to know itself.

I believe that if there is a universal force we call God, then that intelligence is expansive. If God is the ultimate in intelligence, then it must also be the ultimate in expansion. And for expansion to happen, there must be a continuous process of experiencing and learning. The only way to do that is through curiosity.

Of course, I don’t possess that kind of power, but if I were to describe the signs of God’s presence, they would be love and curiosity. But curiosity comes first. I love that idea because if I love without curiosity, I lack discernment. If I am curious, I’m constantly learning, open to change, and willing to let go of my biases.

So, for everything I’ve mentioned, get curious. Be curious about the pain that might be hiding behind a fake smile. Be curious about the pain beneath the urge to fit in rather than belong. What is the pain that prevents me from being curious, loving, or kind in a given situation? If I weren’t in pain or defensive, I’d likely be kind here. And you probably would too.

What is the pain that stops me from experiencing my purpose? What pain keeps me from exploring the depths of my emotions or my shadow self? What if my purpose actually comes from my pain? What if my purpose involves serving the world in a way I’ve never considered? What if it involves embracing a part of myself I’ve pushed away into the shadows?

Whenever you’re about to respond, think about how you can turn it into a question for yourself, not for someone else. You’re not aiming to become an interrogator but to reflect inwardly. 

Want to be more innovative in your organization? Be curious. Want to be a better leader? Be curious. Want to be a better manager? Be curious. This principle applies to every area of your life: be curious.

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