"Magenta detox and dopamine purging"

Deutsche Telekom: Former Chief Brand Officer Hans-Christian Schwingen on his future, the world, and the segment

By Jürgen Scharrer, HORIZONT

Hans-Christian Schwingen has been one of the influential minds of the German marketing segment for many years. After 12 years at Deutsche Telekom, he is now going to treat himself to a break for a couple of months. The original plan was for an in-depth departure interview at the company headquarters in Bonn but, in times of corona, such interviews now take place via phone or Skype.

What are you doing at the moment, Mr. Schwingen? Like so many people, I am working from home and contemplating.

Is there a particular topic which concerns you? People.

People? To be more precise: The culture of debate in our country. It concerns me how thin-skinned people have become. The fact that even reasonably well educated people are often no longer able to have an objective discussion is also worrying. We have replaced thesis, antithesis and synthesis – as it should be – with irreconcilable points of view and stupid comments. The reasonable middle path is increasingly being lost.

When were you most recently directly affected? When I put up a theory on alternative approaches in the coronavirus crisis which had been published in the Welt newspaper for discussion on LinkedIn. Self-proclaimed “lock-keepers” who believe they can determine what may or may not be addressed in public discussion were immediately notified. It never ceases to amaze me that many people attribute their lack of thinking to not being an expert.

Isn’t the exact opposite true? The problem is that more and more people don’t believe a single word that comes out of the mouths of politicians, experts and the press and are generally suspicious of them. Everyone but oneself is stupid. It goes without saying that politicians should be advised by experts. That’s a matter of course. The thing that gets under my skin is when people claim they shouldn’t have to formulate their own opinion because we ultimately have experts for everything. This suffocates every single constructive discussion and curbs both mindset and innovation in the country. Because I’m not an expert, it’s all the more important to inform myself and form my own opinion.

When this interview is published here, you will have left Deutsche Telekom two days ago. How are you feeling? Sad to be going or euphoria? Neither. Of course, it’s wonderful that I don’t feel like I need to free myself somehow because I was under somebody else’s control. That would be very sad indeed! No, I did my job with great passion, conviction and attention to detail. But 12 years are enough.

And now? At the moment, my plan is to not have a plan. I first want to press the reset button, to think about things in peace and collect ideas. I really cannot tell you whether I will work for a company again or if my next task will be to write a book. Everything is an option.

For a manager in your segment, it’s unusual to not have a plan for your next career step. I don’t think it’s that unusual. Think about Antje Neubauer from Deutsche Bahn or the departing GroupM manager Jürgen Blomenkamp. And they’re not the only ones. What about our former CEO René Obermann who left Deutsche Telekom in 2014 to make a clean break. I know more and more people who want to finish the current task before starting a new one. Finding the right time was important to me. I wanted to be more like Philipp Lahm than Joachim Löw.

I wonder if Löw sees it the same way. It was very brave of him to go for the double after winning the World Cup in 2014. But, in hindsight, what will people connect Löw with more? 2014 or the disappointing exit in 2018? You should leave at the top and not when you’re falling and back at square one. Irrespective of whether Löw now looks to be back on track with a younger team.

Exactly. Maybe Löw will win the European Championships in 2021. But back to you. Do you have any idea how long your break will last? Definitely a couple of months at least. The first thing is to do my magenta detox and – a wonderful saying that I recently encountered – a dopamine purging.

And what does that mean exactly? It is possible to become more or less addicted to recognition. After so many years as a manager, it’s interesting to see whether you have this addiction or whether you are able to get away from your apparent importance. And not being constantly present is a good exercise. And that’s what I’m doing now. 

Constantly getting attention is a sweet poison. As the Chief Brand Officer at Deutsche Telekom, you were constantly dealing with people who wanted to impress you. That is now a thing of the past. I never had the impression that the people around me were throwing themselves at me. Not at all.

But surely there must have been some agency representatives trying to impress Mr. Schwingen at events. Well, those who were good knew that I was already aware of them or not and it didn’t make any sense for them to somehow sweet-talk me. It’s a matter of acting professionally. Nobody had to roll the red carpet out for me so, of course, they don't need to roll it back up again now I’m gone.

Looking in from the outside, it seems everything went well: Deutsche Telekom won many prizes and the brand value has increased immensely. Are there things that weren’t so great? Today, it seems to be the trend to talk about potential mess-ups. Now, I don’t want to seem arrogant but I cannot think of a time where I shot myself in the foot for which I need to shame myself publicly. Did projects fail and did you argue with colleagues? I sure hope so! Life is sometimes about fighting battles and coming out the other side with your health intact. 

Let’s speak once again about the end of your career at Deutsche Telekom and a couple of segment-related issues. We can start with purpose. You were considered to be an advocate of the theory that companies need to demonstrate their attitude and get involved. I actually believe that was one of the core elements of my work over the past 12 years. Deutsche Telekom has made the thing that defines the connections between people the core of its existence. They want to support people in sharing their experiences, knowledge and ideas with one another. Everyone should have a stake in the possibilities of digitalization. I believe this also includes making a contribution to bringing an increasingly polarised society a little bit closer together again.

Okay, I can get on board with saying that Deutsche Telekom plays an important role in terms of digital infrastructure. But to say the aim is to contribute towards reconciling a polarised society – isn’t that a bit of an exaggeration? If their goal is to make a significant contribution towards digital participation, they also need to occupy themselves with the collateral damage of digitalisation. Of course, I think that a clean network where people can move freely without being personally attacked should be on Deutsche Telekom’s agenda. And they should also clearly communicate this agenda.

Isn’t the Marketing department’s task to simply contribute to a good revenue development? But that would mean reducing the company’s presence to revenue and profit.

What would be wrong about that? Surely not breaking any laws, treating one’s employees well and not destroying the environment is enough, isn’t it? I don’t think a company with such a restricted perspective would survive for very long. If people give you clear signals to not just focus on profit and dividends, you should take them very seriously.

Consumers rarely punish companies after a scandal. Ultimately the things that matter are product quality and price. I stand by my belief: Social developments pose the challenge for brands to clarify their position and to posit moral principles that are embedded in the company’s purpose. It is no longer possible simply to sell your wares and stay out of the social discourse. Business mandates and social responsibility are now inextricably linked.

How confident are you that purpose marketing also makes economic sense? In 2008 Telekom were 4th in the brand capitalisation rankings of European telecommunication companies. They have been the clear leader since 2014. According to BrandZ, they are the second most valuable German brand in Germany. So it cannot have been such a big mistake to position Deutsche Telekom as a value-oriented company if I may be so blunt.

Vodafone and Deutsche Telekom have regular marketing battles. What do you think about your colleague Gregor Gründgens? I really appreciate Gregor. We often bump into one another and then have a chat about the segment. It’s fine that Vodafone is sometimes a little bit aggressive. But the recent statements from my colleague were not able to cover up certain bitter facts for Vodafone. Deutsche Telekom is the market leader in terms of revenue in Germany in both mobile and fixed networks. In 2019, they invested more than twice the amount in network build-out than Vodafone. They not only have the best network; they also are one of the first companies to already fully cover its electricity needs with sustainable energy sources.

We are more interested in who is doing the better marketing and not who is investing more in network build-out. I'm biased, of course. But independent studies such as the YouGov brand monitor have shown that Deutsche Telekom is way ahead of Vodafone in all brand indexes. They achieve good scores in terms of general impression, willingness to recommend, customer satisfaction and perceived quality. Their image results are also much better than all of their competitors’. That’s just how it is.

Another topic that is causing concern in the segment is performance marketing vs. branding. Do you subscribe to the theory that too much attention is being given to sales and that the balance is no longer right?  I think there is a definite discrepancy right now. Of course, we have also had some experience of this at Deutsche Telekom. It has been shown that, in particular, macro-topics such as network, connections in Europe, digital participation or education generate a purchase intent that is 10 percent higher than as a result of direct marketing-oriented messages.

That’s astonishing. Do the colleagues in Sales and Media feel the same way or is it a never-ending battle? As a chief brand officer, you need to keep explaining why it is better to position and differentiate yourself as a company with large-scale topics rather than getting bogged down in smaller issues. This has not changed over the past 12 years. I think successful market leadership is based on three things: Penetration, discipline and stamina.

Do you, like so many of your colleagues, think it is really bad that cookies are now under attack? I have a counter question. Do you have the impression that the target group-specific accuracy and the content quality of display notices with cookies are significantly better than without cookies?

Not in the slightest.  Exactly. The ever-increasingly fragmented media usage has resulted in two problems: Planned range and effectiveness. Here, the digital ecosystem has only provided insufficient answers to date. The death of cookies will further weaken a system addicted to user data.

And now? Well, I believe that the answer lies in the renaissance of environment planning. This is generally a matter of contextual application scenarios in which the environment, i.e. content only is one of many parameters. Another key element is the state of the recipients. Deutsche Telekom is currently working on solutions with its subsidiary Emetriq as well as Google and the large-scale German digital marketers to make it possible to plan these application scenarios or “media moods” as I call them. Initial campaigns which have already been launched with the early implementation phases of the new planning tools have resulted in a significant increase in effectiveness.

If there is one thing that the whole segment likes, it’s agility. Are you also a big fan of it? To an extent, yes. Agile working structures are essentially something good because they encourage employees to bear personal responsibility. However, if they are not oriented towards a formulated and committed result, they drown in chaos. It must also be crystal clear that important decisions are not then suddenly reached outside of the structures.

I’m asking myself if all employees really think it’s so great. There are people that don’t want to keep reinventing themselves and teams that constantly change. They just want to do a good job. Of course, agile working methods aren’t a silver bullet. Not every employee is totally comfortable if too much self-responsibility is imposed upon them. There is absolutely nothing reprehensible if employees cope better with clear responsibility structures. Therefore, I completely understand when people do not constantly want to deal with the stress of making themselves visible and making sure they prevail.

Do you think that swarm intelligence is, generally speaking, overestimated – at least in marketing terms? The question you should be asking is how large can the swarm be? We have repeatedly tested swarm-creativity campaigns. Let me tell you: The results aren’t great.

That is interesting. There are a few talents dotted around who then occasionally have a really good idea. However, you wouldn’t believe how little can be activated in the mass.

Mr. Schwingen, you have not been responsible for Deutsche Telekom’s brand leadership for two days now. I would still like to ask you where you believe Deutsche Telekom should head now? I am sure that my successor doesn't need tips from me. I am very confident that he will do a good job. But, seeing as you’re asking: Of course, I would be happy if Deutsche Telekom continued to address issues relevant to society and positioned itself as a company from the center of society. On a personal level, I also think it would be very constructive to consider a magenta logo and word mark. It would help in positioning the brand more clearly on the market and, on an international basis, to differentiate itself from other telecommunications companies with a T in their names.

And finally: I see paintings on the wall behind you. Do you collect paintings from a particular artist? No, they’re all my own work that I’ve created and stored over the years.

Is it more than a hobby? No. Nobody is buying these paintings. But painting is definitely a passion of mine. Let’s wait and see if I get a bit more involved in it again.

This interview first appeared in German in HORIZONT No. 14 of April 2, 2020.