Negotiation Guru: Prof. Carolyn Goerner on the Lifelong Learning of Influence & Empathy

“The essence of empathetic negotiation is that I need to focus on what I want and ensure that the deal allows the other person to walk away feeling good ... Empathetic negotiation is not just about resolving a conflict or negotiating once; it's about maintaining a positive, long-term relationship.” Prof. Carolyn Goerner

Carolyn Goerner, Ph.D. , a leadership and development expert and negotiation guru, suggests approaching conversations with curiosity. We can create a more collaborative and less adversarial environment by being genuinely interested in people's needs and perspectives rather than solely focusing on our agenda. Prof. Goerner emphasizes that authentic leadership requires ongoing learning and empathy, especially in understanding others' perspectives and needs. This empathy extends into negotiations, where it's crucial to balance our needs with those of others to maintain long-term, positive relationships.

Stephen Matini: The first thing I read on your LinkedIn profile is, "Leaders are learners.” It's very short and to the point. I would like to know why you chose that.

Prof. Carolyn Goerner: There are a couple of reasons. The first is that leadership, I don't think, is something that you wake up and say, "I've mastered it." It is something we try to get a little better at every day. For me, the idea that I don't need any more leadership insight or training is just silly. We all do. Nobody ever reaches the point where they're done, right?

Secondly, if I'm really going to be a good leader, I've got to understand my context and my followers. So, I have a learning curve around developing empathy for people and ensuring that I'm seeing things from multiple perspectives. That’s a significant part of it too. People need to continue learning about leadership and also about the people and the context they are in.

SM: How did you get into the world of negotiation, power, and personal influence?

Prof. CG: John Lennon said life is what happens when you're making other plans. That’s sort of how my career trajectory went. I actually did my undergraduate degrees in philosophy and religion and went through college on a debate scholarship.

I wasn't really thinking about what I might do professionally. I kind of stumbled my way into consulting. When I burned out on that, I decided to go to graduate school. My parents are professors of communication, so I went to get my master's degree in rhetoric and communication.

All that persuasion and influential language was something I was interested in, but I quickly realized that while I’m glad there are people who study that, it wasn't for me. So I did my PhD in Management and Human Resources, which is really the intersection of all those interests. 

It's my fascination with how we use language and how language affects people, coupled with really interesting studies in organizational dynamics and politics, and how all that plays together.

SM: Was it an advantage or disadvantage to have two parents who focused on communication growing up?

Prof. CG: I think it was definitely an advantage. I'm blessed to still have my parents living, and they are two of my very favorite people. It wasn't the kind of thing where we always sat and scrutinized everybody, but there was a lot of healthy conversation. They would often say, "Okay, you need to tell me about that." So, I suppose it was a bit like having parents who are psychologists—very conscious of having good, healthy conversations.

SM: What do you think your parents would say is the secret to effective communication?

Prof. CG: Empathy. That's what they have taught me. And that's absolutely what I've seen them do with other folks. It's not about me and it's not about whether or not I'm right. It's about whether or not I'm connecting with the other person. True communication really comes down to figuring out what the other party is all about and how I can then be a part of the conversation with them in ways they can understand.

One of my favorite local leaders was a gentleman who was a representative in Congress for my state for a long time. He made a comment when he was talking to one of my classes that leaders are supposed to make everyone else in the room comfortable. I thought, do you have to agree with them? That seems a little pandering and silly.

He said, no, my job is not to agree, but I need to make a space where it's comfortable for them to express what they're thinking, and it's comfortable for us to disagree without someone getting defensive. That really stayed with me. It's very consistent with my parents' advice as well. In order to make good communication happen, you need to get out of your own way.

SM: Have you ever worked with a client or team who seemed to lack social awareness?

Prof. CG: Yes. I often see this with individuals from technical backgrounds. They might make a proposal after working extensively on their data—running their numbers 74 times and being absolutely convinced their approach is correct.

When they present their proposal to decision-makers, they focus solely on explaining why they believe they are right. They don't consider what the other person might need to hear or how the decision-maker needs to make their decision. Instead, they are just intent on convincing others that they are right. This is a common issue, and it’s frustrating because it’s so typical.

I’m fortunate to work with highly knowledgeable people who can justify their proposals with solid data. The problem isn’t their ability to support their requests with evidence; it's the way they present their case that often causes issues.

SM: What’s the first step to overcoming the fear and discomfort of conflict, negotiation, and confrontation?

Prof. CG: My first piece of advice is to get curious. Start by figuring out what the other person is asking and where they might be coming from.

There’s an interesting concept in psychology called the spotlight effect. It means that if I'm feeling uncomfortable, I feel like there's a spotlight on me. This sensation can be paralyzing; I become hyper-focused on myself and feel that everyone else is focusing on me too. It's really overwhelming. Interestingly, my neck actually gets red when this happens.

The way around this is to use a technique described by Roger Yuri, William Fisher and Bruce Patton in their book Getting to Yes. They call it "going to the balcony." This means stepping back emotionally from the conversation, observing it, and learning from what’s going on.

By developing genuine curiosity about where the other person is coming from, the spotlight effect diminishes. For example, if you dislike networking, try finding someone who looks more uncomfortable than you and focus on them. Shifting your attention away from yourself can help reduce the tension.

SM: Is this the basis of what you refer to as empathetic negotiation?

Prof. CG: Absolutely, yes. The essence of empathetic negotiation is that I need to focus on what I want and ensure that the deal allows the other person to walk away feeling good. It may sound counterintuitive, but when we only focus on the price and assume we'll never see each other again—like haggling on the street or buying a car—this approach is common. However, most negotiations involve a deal that will need to be implemented together.

The key is understanding what the deal means to both parties so that when we implement it, there are no surprises. We want to avoid buyers' or sellers' remorse and prevent attempts to sabotage the deal or overlook important aspects. 

Empathetic negotiation is not just about resolving a conflict or negotiating once; it's about maintaining a positive, long-term relationship.

SM: What do you do when you sense that your counterpart doesn’t care?

Prof. CG: That's a great question because it's a common issue. First, you might try to call it out directly. For example, you could say, "You seem really focused on the outcome here and not on what it means to me. Can you tell me more about why this is so important to you?" Sometimes, asking this question can make people realize they are coming across as aggressive or defensive when they are actually just scared or reacting poorly.

If you've been asking questions and trying to engage, but the other person isn’t reciprocating, you can honestly say, "I’m trying to find a solution that works for both of us. If you’re not interested in that, maybe we shouldn’t be talking." It’s not about threatening to walk away but about recognizing that you may not want to do business with this person.

Having alternatives is crucial. Before entering a conversation, consider what you'll do if it doesn’t work out. Knowing your alternatives gives you power because it means you don’t have to stay in a situation that isn’t beneficial.

Another challenging question, especially for entrepreneurs or those just starting, is whether this client is someone you want to keep long-term. Initially, you might think you need the money, but consider whether this is the kind of person you want to work with. Evaluate the opportunity cost: what might you be missing out on by working with this person? The ideal scenario is to wait for a better client, though the real world often requires more pragmatic decisions.

Think about how you’ll feel a year from now when the phone rings and you see this person’s name. If the thought makes you uneasy, it’s worth considering alternative strategies. For example, you might limit the deal, set specific parameters, or agree to a short-term arrangement with the option to renegotiate later. Ultimately, consider if this is a relationship you genuinely want to maintain.

SM: Could feeling like you have no alternatives make a negotiation more difficult?

Prof. CG: Yes, absolutely. When I have nothing but this conversation, I feel like I have only two choices: to fight really hard or to give in and give you whatever you need. If you’re my only alternative, I don’t have good options.

SM: Do you believe that people always have an alternative option?

Prof. CG: No, I wish they did. Sometimes, we don’t have alternatives, and that’s when we need to adopt a mindset that says, "I want you to win, but I want to win too," and approach the situation with collaboration and creativity, which is really challenging.

It's scary to assert your interests and say, "No, I need this too," when you don’t have an alternative. However, in the long run, continually giving in just leads to bitterness and dissatisfaction. So, yes, looking for options is always a good idea, but it's not always the case that we have them. Is that what you were getting at with your question?

SM: If I feel stuck with a client and see no alternatives, I shift my mindset. Instead of getting frustrated, I accept the situation, stay aware, and keep looking for options. This approach saves energy and helps me manage the situation better.

Prof. CG: I love that.  Not only does it save you from constantly complaining about it in your mind or to others, but it also puts things into perspective. It makes complete sense.

SM: In your experience, which is the hardest to deal with: a difficult boss, challenging teammates, tough clients, or issues with loved ones?

Prof. CG: A loved one is definitely the hardest. You don’t have an option with someone like your husband or partner; they are part of your life, and there's no alternative. I’m lucky because mine is amazing, but you have to be creative when dealing with loved ones since you can’t just walk away.

In terms of work, people often say negotiating with a boss is the next hardest. Here’s where you need to do your homework. Consider what value you bring to the relationship with your boss. How do you make them look good? How do you help them achieve their goals? Reflect on why your work is important to them.

For instance, if your boss relies on you as a sounding board, you need to factor that into your negotiation. If you’re asking for more remote work, come prepared with solutions, like staying on a team channel to stay connected. Understand why your boss might resist and address those concerns.

With teammates, it’s often about reciprocity—helping each other out. Similarly, with clients, don’t underestimate the power of likability. Think about the last few times you did a favor for someone. The dynamic of mutual support and likability is crucial in these relationships.

We naturally do things for people we like. The key is to ensure that I'm not only reaching out when I need something. Instead, we should build a relationship, find common interests, and show genuine interest in each other.

Whether it’s with teammates, clients, or even your boss, this context helps create a different kind of conversation. It fosters mutual understanding.

I understand how busy we all are, and I have to remind myself of this often, but those five minutes spent chatting after a meeting, in the hallway, or at a coffee shop—asking about kids, pets, or recent events—really matter. These small interactions make it easier to handle more challenging conversations later.

SM: What’s the first step to building genuine relationships in a busy, transactional world where personal connections often get lost?

Prof. CG: Last night, my husband and I were out for dinner. The server approached us and asked, "Hi, how are you?" without expecting a real answer. When I made eye contact and replied, "We're good tonight. How are you?" she seemed almost startled.

I think it’s important to be the person who reminds others that interactions don’t have to be transactional. They can be more meaningful. For example, she paused and said, "I'm good." It was kind of funny.

I have a colleague who never just says, "Hi, how are you?" Instead, he asks questions like, "Caroline, what are you working on that you're really interested in?" or "What’s the coolest thing that happened to you today?" He shows genuine interest with these questions. Yes, it takes an extra 30 seconds, but that time is well spent for creating a real connection.

Another practice I follow is giving compliments to others, especially to women, even if I don’t know them. For instance, if I see someone coming into a restaurant and I walk by, I might stop and say, "You look amazing. That dress is perfect." Offering a random compliment from a stranger can make a big difference.

COVID has made us more isolated, as we’ve had to stay safe and protect ourselves. But by modeling openness and vulnerability, we remind others of the connections we used to have. It helps people relax and remember that genuine interactions are still possible.

SM: Have you changed the way you handle negotiation and confrontation over the years?

Prof. CG: Yes, I’ve changed completely over the years. It’s been an evolution of many different things. Initially, it was about getting comfortable with my own sense of imposter syndrome. 

Over time, I’ve tried enough, dared enough, and realized that most of the time things end up well. I’ve also grown confident in my ability to handle the times when they don’t. This self-awareness, knowledge, and confidence come from practice. Additionally, it might be a matter of getting older—perhaps it’s the white hair!

SM: What keeps your mind busy these days? Is there a particular thought or insight that's been on your mind?

Prof. CG: Interestingly, my mind is focused on gender differences, particularly regarding negotiation. There are books about this, like Women Don’t Ask, which highlight the belief that women don’t negotiate, contributing to the wage gap between men and women. It almost seemed like a criticism of women, suggesting they aren't asking.

Newer research shows that anyone trained in negotiation, regardless of gender, is more likely to negotiate. This reduces the gender difference. This is why I love teaching negotiation. However, traditional stereotypes still impact perceptions. 

Women asking for something may be perceived differently than men due to these stereotypes. My current focus is on navigating this intersection—how to address these traditional stereotypes and facilitate conversations without triggering negative reactions based on stereotype violations. So, what keeps me thinking is figuring out how these enduring stereotypes interact with the advice I give on succeeding in negotiations, regardless of gender.

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