Transcript, E114: Caroline Webb on how to have a good day at a bad job

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For more on this episode of Hello Monday, check out this article featuring my conversation with Caroline Webb, and leave your thoughts in the comments.

This episode of Hello Monday, "Caroline Webb on how to have a good day at a bad job," was first released on June 14, 2021.

Jessi Hempel: From the news team at LinkedIn, I'm Jessi Hempel. And this is Hello Monday. Not everyone loves their job, but sometimes we can't quit. Maybe we need the paycheck. Maybe we're training to do something more fulfilling in the future, the job's not what we want, but that doesn't mean the days have to be a slog.

Caroline Webb: Realistic optimism is to say, let's acknowledge that sometimes you're not in the job that you love. Let's acknowledge that things aren't always perfect. Now, what can you do? Where's your wiggle room within that?

Jessi Hempel: That's Caroline Webb. Caroline is an executive coach, economist and the author of a book called How to Have a Good Day [at Work]. She's an expert in how to manufacture contentment, even when your job feels pretty unappealing. Here's her approach to work.

Caroline Webb: I'm always looking for what I can learn and what I can give. And that's how I've made most of my career choices as well. When there have been deliberate ones, is to say what is it that I want to learn next? Uh, how do I want to develop as a professional? How do I want to grow? And then also, what is it that I think I might be able to give, that might be different or unique or useful in some way. And so that continues to, to guide pretty much all the choices that I make.

Jessi Hempel: Caroline is passionate about understanding human behavior. No matter how much or how little you love your current job, I really think you'll appreciate her outlook. And once you've listened to this episode, my hope, our hope, is that you'll feel empowered to have more good days. So to start us off, I asked Caroline, well, what does it even mean to have a good day at work?

Caroline Webb: Obviously it's different for different people, but I, I interviewed hundreds of people over the course of the years and I asked them, what's a good day for you? What's a bad day? What would give you more good days? And there were really several themes that came up again and again, didn't matter whether it was a man or a woman, didn't matter what age they were, what country they were in, what field they were in. 

It was a sense that you're doing things that matter to you in some way, so that's one big chunk. There's a feeling that you're doing your best and you're doing well in what you're doing so that you feel good about the conversations that you're having, the impact that you're having, the quality of, of what you're doing. And there's also a question of what about the energy and resilience to deal with ups and downs as they come and go? And do you have that energy and resilience in the tank at the end of the day to do it all again tomorrow? 

And that came up again and again, and you know, some people say, well what about laughter and connection and pleasure and so on. And absolutely that's part of it. That's part of, that's the sort of drum beat of, of joy that's pulses through all of that, um. But the things that really sustain our feelings of joy tend to be, uh, that ability to feel we're doing what we're supposed to be doing. We're doing it well, and that we have the energy to do it.

Jessi Hempel: Well, it would seem to me that there are some things that you just can't change, about whether your day is good or bad, and whether your job is good or bad. Say you're not doing work that's fulfilling to you. Like what I think might be true is that I might be surprised by the things that can change...

Caroline Webb: Mmm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel: ...And so that's really what I wanna explore with you today. Um, where do you begin?

Caroline Webb: My philosophy is definitely one of realistic optimism rather than Pollyanna, blue sky optimism. I do think, you know, there is luck in whether you're having a great time in your life right now. You know, sometimes you go through a rough period. Sometimes you're born into a rough situation, and you're dealt hands of cards that you wouldn't choose. 

But I do think that behavioral science gives us a sense of where the wiggle room is. You know, where the, where the space is to make things at least a little bit better. You can take a little more control of the quality of what's happening to you than a lot of us tend to think. So a lot of things that we assume are happening to us can be quite significantly shifted by small things that we can do that don't take very much effort or time.

Jessi Hempel: Of course, shifting small things begins with the idea of what we notice in the first place. And that takes us to this kind of amazing piece of science called the gorilla study. You can watch the video we mentioned online, just Google it. It's a fun few minutes, I hope you do. It matters a lot to Caroline's work.

Caroline Webb: The way it worked was to show people just how much you can miss if you're not looking for it, or not ready for it or not expecting it. There were a couple of psychology professors who got their students to throw around a couple of basketballs in a corridor, and they took a video of this, and they asked people watching the video afterwards to count the number of passes between the kids who were wearing white t-shirts. And in the middle of the video, what they had was a person in a gorilla suit come on in the middle, walk into the middle of the frame, stand there for quite a while, quite literally, and this person, she was a woman in the gorilla suit, beat her chest for, for a little while, and then walked off. 

We have a very limited stock of conscious attention. And we're, uh, obviously fabulously complex human beings. But a lot of what we do is actually on autopilot is below the level of consciousness. And our conscious attention is moderately limited. And you know this, if you've ever put your glasses down or a notebook down somewhere, and you can't remember where you put it because you weren't paying attention at the time. So, there's a little bit of a sense that you know that your conscious attention can't be everywhere all the time.

Jessi Hempel: I've been thinking about that a lot because I've just started the commute again. And I hadn't noticed the degree to which my commuting was just on autopilot, until I did it for the first time after 18 months and began to see everything that I'd kind of remembered, and it immediately went back to autopilot. And that's what you're talking about, right?

Caroline Webb: So interesting. Yes, absolutely, and it's actually a really nice design feature of our brains because you know, given that we've got limited conscious attention, isn't it fantastic that most of the things we do, can be done unconsciously and can be done on autopilot. We learn habits and then they become habitual, and then we don't have to think about them. You know, we don't have to think about brushing our teeth and so on. But the thing is, with this conscious attention, this limited amount of conscious attention, there's a question then about well, what do we see and hear and notice? Because that's what we experience as our reality. That is what we think is our life. 

And so, you know, if I'm walking down the street and I hear someone shout out something nasty in my direction, but I miss someone shouting out something lovely in my direction, then, you know, I have a perception of the word being, a, a more unpleasant place than it actually is. Now the question is, where do we choose to put our attention? And the way it works is that whatever's top of mind for you right now will tell your brain, oh, well, that's what you should see more of in the next minute. So what's top of mind for you now, so, maybe you're in a bad mood, will determine what you tend to notice out of all the things that you can notice. And then you might filter out the things that don't fit with your state of mind. 

And that's where the gorilla study comes in. And when they show the video to people afterwards and say, please count the number of passes between the people in white t-shirts, they then ask, okay, uh, did anyone see anything weird? And what they find is that at least half the people don't see the gorilla, they don't notice the gorilla. And, you know, a few other people, you know, might be uncertain exactly what it was that they did see. And, how is that? How can they possibly miss this great big thing that's right in the middle of this video, right in front of them? It's because their attention is elsewhere. It's because the goal that was top of mind for them was counting the passes. 

And so the analogy for the rest of us, you know, in our everyday lives, is what's the gorilla we're looking for? You know, what's top of mind for us? What is our goal? Because we're totally capable of missing something quite big and potentially quite interesting or, or pleasant, if we start with our mindset in a different place. It's just our brain trying to be efficient in deciding what we should notice and making a decision that we should probably notice things that match our initial ingoing state of mind. So we've got a big... sort of scope for power of, of attention here, in saying, okay, well, what, what's the filter I want to carry into the day? What's the filter I want to carry into this conversation that I'm slightly dreading? What do I do? What do I want to look out for? Where do I want to put my attention? What do I want to look out for that might be a little bit more positive than my initial starting point would be?

Jessi Hempel: Caroline, that makes so much sense. And yet, as I reflect on my own approach to my work life, that's actually very hard to do. It's, it's very hard when we have these neural pathways sort of laid down already about this colleague who's hard to work with, or that colleague who just talks too much and never stops, to back up and restructure all of that. So can you give us something smaller we can start with here?

Caroline Webb: Well, all of these big scientific ideas break down to tiny, teeny tiny habits, and the small thing that you can do, as you're going into a conversation, you notice perhaps, that you have a bit of stress, and you can feel it in your body, or you can hear a negative voice in your head and you say, okay, what would I like to notice in this conversation? And it's just... to get yourself a question, what do I want to notice? And the more that you can boil it down to a simple question that, you know, even in the heat of the moment, you can probably remember. That question might not speak to you. Then maybe a different version might be, what really matters most here? Or it could be, what I really want to achieve? It's something that makes sure that you bring back to the top of your mind something that actually is what you want to guide your attention. And if you can do that, you write on a post-it note. You can write it on, in your notebook. You can put it on your phone as a screensaver, just to have it there, like what, what really matters? What do I really want to notice? Where do I really want to put my attention? And really that's it. So, although it sounds like a huge thing to reset your perceptual filters, the reality of how you do it is very simple...

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Caroline Webb: ...And it, of course like anything else becomes easier if you practice it, but, of all the things that I talk about it’s probably the most profound, but also actually in some ways the easiest to do. Because this, this sheer factor of saying “what do I want to notice” is enough to shift what you will then notice.

Jessi Hempel: Well, let's talk a second about what I think of is the comeback, which is when things really start off difficult, and you need to try to change sort of midstream, whether it's a meeting or a day, or let's take the example of our conversation here today, Caroline, you and I got on our screens together and all of a sudden, none of our audio equipment worked.

And I was a little embarrassed because I'm the host, and it took us almost 20 minutes to sort out. So now I'm embarrassed and a little anxious. And also I'm talking to someone about how to have a good day, so a lot of pressure, right? How in those moments, when you really have it on the line, do you draw back?

Caroline Webb: Well, I have a notice, pause, reset routine. I notice what's going on. I take a pause. And for me, that's often to take a breath and to feel my feet on the floor, or as it is right now, actually, I've got my feet on the legs of my chair. So just to feel something grounded. Pause. That just gives you a moment to gather yourself and then to reset and say, okay what really matters most here? And in, you know, our situation and what matters most is that we have a good conversation...

Jessi Hempel: Yeah.

Caroline Webb: ...And one of the things that you did, which was, I thought very helpful, was that you stayed cheerful throughout. I couldn't hear you, but I could see your demeanor on your face…

Jessi Hempel: Isn’t it amazing how we read our energy...

Caroline Webb: Right...

Jessi Hempel: ...we, we bring the energy into the room long before ever speak, right?

Caroline Webb: Right. And you, you portrayed, you radiated a certain energy, which was, you know, we're trying our best and I knew you were trying your best. And that is, you know, another good way to, to hit reset, is to assume good intent, you know. If you're experiencing bad behavior in someone else, it's actually quite unlikely that they're utterly incompetent. It's quite likely that something has knocked them off their game. There could be any number of reasons and actually training yourself to say, okay, I'm assuming “good person in bad circumstances.” I wonder what could be going on here? Like even if they are a pain, even if they are an unpleasant person, the fact of you doing that little mental trick of saying, well, what could be another explanation, is going to put you in a better mood because it's going to help you see the other person as a human being, even if they're a very flawed one.

And it's also been shown actually to make you more resilient not just the situation that's going on right now, but actually even months later, this technique of saying what could be a different explanation? What could be a more benign, positive explanation? Has been shown to have lasting impact on our ability to ride the ups and downs.

Jessi Hempel: And we've had a lot of ups and downs this year. When we come back, Caroline's gonna give us some advice on how to have a good day... during a pandemic.

(podcast ad break)

And we're back, my guest today is author Caroline Webb. During our conversation, she opened up about needing to use some of her own research and advice to make it through this really wild last year.

Caroline Webb: You know, I've got family illness as well as a backdrop - as a lot of people will, there are other dramas that are playing out for, for all of us all the time. There can be any number of really, really tough stretches that you can go through as a human being. And I think one thing that I have always tried to do, is to focus not on advice that only works in good times, but to really battle test the advice that I give to make sure that A, I take it  myself. And B, it really does work when things are really tough. Um, so I have, you know, I've done this sort of work, I've talked about these sorts of techniques with... prison officers, with, uh, people working in an emergency room, the hospital and so on. And I am happy to say that these small things of noticing in yourself that you have the stress, just even acknowledging that you feel stressed has been shown to actually reduce your stress, because you're labeling what's going on. You're sort of reducing the state of alert in your brain, giving yourself a moment to breathe and pause. I mean, my goodness, if you can go for a walk then fantastic. 

But in times of pandemic, we weren't even able to do that. So maybe we just stand up and we, you know, we stretch and we give ourselves a moment, uh, a moment of pleasure of doing something that we enjoy, and then to reconnect with what really matters. And I think, you know, setting yourself small goals, so that you can get a small sense of achievement. I mean, for many people, it was a bit of baking, or it was learning a new thing. Um, it could be, you know, learning that you actually have the resilience to come through, so there's something about self-knowledge there. 

I think, you know, one of the things that was hardest perhaps in, in the pandemic is that, you know, there are really moments when your mood will go down, your, your mood will tank. And a lot of people beat themselves up about that and thought, well, why do I feel so tired and de-motivated, why do I feel so sad? But actually, it's pretty normal given everything that's going on. The question is, how can you be kind to yourself and give your brain the rewards that it needs, you know, the sense of achievement, the sense of gratitude, the connection with people, and a sense of perhaps of small purpose, like doing something that's useful or kind.

Jessi Hempel: Caroline, I want to stop on that, that...

Caroline Webb: Right.

Jessi Hempel: ...again, just because I just think it's so important to, to amplify it a second. As I look back with the very limited forward view that I now have, right, you know, it was just not very long ago that I was in quarantine with, uh, you know, two small children, and here I am, you're catching me on my third day back at the office. And now I can look back and say, oh my God, poor me, that was so hard, of course I wasn't getting a lot done...

Caroline Webb: Yeah.

Jessi Hempel: ...But at the time I was just beating myself up, I was like, why can't I be more efficient here?

Caroline Webb: Yeah, and I think it did help. I mean, the more that we shared with each other how we were feeling... I can still remember reading an article where I, I read that a high-powered executive had said that he just completely lost his mojo and he didn't know what was happening to him. And I think every single person who read that article felt a bit better. I think there is something about sharing that vulnerability in that common humanity that I hope we don't lose because I don't know about you, but I feel like we got to, we learn to see other people more as whole people in the pandemic, and to have a spirit of inquiry about what's going on in their personal lives that, uh, I think was healthy. 

And I hope we don't lose because I think, you know, we are whole people, you know, pre-pandemic we were also bringing all of our lives to work, you know, you had your kids to think about all the time as well, it just got harder. And now, you know, I hope that everybody will cut each other, continue to cut each other some slack, and say, how are you doing? And take a moment to say you did that really well, you're not doing too badly, keep it up, hold on! A little bit more appreciation.

Jessi Hempel:- Let's talk about the gratitude piece a second…

Caroline Webb: Mmm-hmm.

Jessi Hempel: ...because gratitude is one of your more important tools in your tool book.

Caroline Webb: Yeah, yeah. Well, gratitude flows really nicely from what we were just saying about being deliberate about where you want to put your attention. So it's not just that, if you're going to a meeting where, you know, this person has been a bit difficult in the past, you can deliberately decide to notice what could be more positive and more collaborative in the situation. I mean, if you don't and you're expecting it to be bad, you will naturally see everything that is bad about the conversation. Then it's another little hop and a step to saying, okay, well then where do I choose to put my attention in general? Do I choose to look out for things that are worthy of gratitude? And I have to say that that is one of the quickest ways to give myself a boost. If I notice that I'm a little grumpy, a little cranky, or a little sad, or a little stressed, I'll take a moment to say, even if it's through gritted teeth, which it sometimes is, what are three things I'm grateful for? And you know (sighs) you know, there are days when you just think, ohhh, I don't know really...

Jessi Hempel: Thank you for saying that Caroline, because you're right, there are.

Caroline Webb: ...But if you push through that and you say, okay, all right, well, I guess I'm, I'm grateful for the fact that the leaves have come out on the tree outside my window, and that's actually pretty nice. And I am grateful for this conversation I'm having with the lovely Jessi, you, you just stop and say, okay, well, this is actually pretty great. And even if it's not “pretty great,” and it's just a “slightly okay,” that is enough to redirect your attention. 

And, you know, the initial boost is of course that you feel some more happiness, that that sense of satisfaction, you're put back into the sense of perspective that actually there are some good things in life, but then come back to what I said before, what we now know is that that also drives what you notice next, and what you notice next. And then you can turn the flywheel of positive observations. So the more you practice gratitude, the easier it goes. And the more good things you see.

Jessi Hempel: You know, um, thinking about gratitude, it makes me think about a time in my life a long time ago now, 12 years ago. It was before I met my wife, and I had a tragic breakup. I think almost everybody listening can identify with what a tragic breakup feels like...

Caroline Webb: Uh-huh.

Jessi Hempel: ...It's awful. It's like having the flu, it's really bad. And a friend convinced me that every day I should write down three things I was grateful for. And I did it every day with gritted teeth. And it was a very useful tool in that moment, but it was even more useful after the fact, because what I realized is that actually I don't think we know ourselves very well. And when I had a full three months of daily “what I was grateful for,” I realized that I didn't need a trip to Disney world, I needed a cup of coffee every day, and I probably needed a dog.

Caroline Webb: That's fascinating, yes, I think you're, I think you're so right. So much of this starts with some self knowledge, and we - we're constantly rolling from one commitment to the next and, you know, meeting deadlines, you know, getting to work on time, and to take a step back and say, actually, who am I, and what gives me energy? And how can I be therefore more deliberate about bringing that into my life?

For sure, I remember doing an exercise, oh gosh, it must have been about 15 years ago. And I remember I was asking people who knew me well, you know, what do you think? You know, If Caroline had a part of her life that, you know, had been set aside and perhaps she could be using more, what would that be? And one of the big answers that came through was music, 'cause, you know, music has always been a part of my life, but it was sort of on the back burner. And people knew that it gave me a real lift and it gave me joy to make music. And with that in mind, I thought, okay, I'm going to be much more deliberate about playlists, music walking to work, music even in my meetings. And I actually started to be quite brave and, and using music at work. 

Um, and it was really a beautiful thing, but it came from that self knowledge of saying, actually, what is it that gives me joy and how can I be deliberate about bringing that into the day? And I love that you did that. I love that you know, that you, you saw the pattern, you noticed and then you thought, okay, well let me do something more about that. That's perfect.

Jessi Hempel: Oh, well, so here we are. And a lot of our listeners are newly coming back to the office this summer, or they just newly have the imagination and creativity and head space to really focus on their work and what they want again. And a lot of folks aren't that happy. And of course there are some folks who will leave their jobs and a lot of folks who will leave their jobs, but then there are a lot of folks for whom that's just really off the table. What might we think about, for the group of people who are going back to jobs, that they need to cultivate their inner happiness about, or their need to cultivate their sense of enthusiasm about again?

Caroline Webb: Mmm-hmm, that's a great question. I think that's absolutely right. A lot of people will be going back into jobs, or, you know, starting to work again in old ways in jobs that, uh, don't thrill them. And we've all been there, and I have plenty of those in my life too. And I do think that purpose is a good place to start. And it might seem weird if you're in a job that you don't love, how can you think about “What's my life's purpose?'' That's perhaps the last time you think that it's possible to be purpose driven, if you're in a job that isn't great. But actually, it's been found that even tiny bits of purpose by which, I mean, you know, saying, okay, well, who's going to benefit from this. And if I do this well, what might be the bigger impact beyond myself, beyond, uh, my company? What might be easier or better for some person out there? You know, maybe it's a customer. That even just asking yourself that question from time to time, and reconnecting with that can be enough to give yourself a boost of motivation. That is really helpful. 

I mean, there have been times when I've been in jobs that have not been ideal. I've worked in supermarkets, I've been a hotel maid, I've encountered some really, you know, unpleasant stretches in my career and definitely focusing on, well, what is gonna be better as a result of me doing this well? Has really helped me, uh, a lot of the time. And I think also learning, uh, purpose and learning to say, okay, so this isn't great, what can I learn from this? 

There was definitely - there was one time I was in a job and my manager who I loved left, and I had been so fond of her. And then this new guy came in and he was a pale shadow, and he was not particularly effective in the role. And I thought, okay, I'm going to learn whether I can do a good job, even if I don't have an amazing manager, that's gonna be what I will focus on learning. And that was really helpful, that also helped me to say, oh, how fascinating, every time I was in a meeting where he wasn't super helpful. I was like how fascinating, I'm going to learn whether I can do this without his input…

Jessi Hempel: (laughing)

Caroline Webb: ...And honestly, it was a productive period for me. So, you know, I think purpose and learning can help a lot.

Jessi Hempel: Um, I really, really, really loved that. Um, the last thing I would just say is that it feels to me like this is really part of what you were getting at. It feels to me like the pandemic shortened our horizons, and shortened our ability to look forward, right? Everything was immediate, it was right now, it was what's happening this week. And now we're stepping into a world where we have, perhaps newly, the ability to have a longer time horizon again. And we may need to relearn how to do it.

Caroline Webb: Hmmm. 

Jessi Hempel: Not everything needs to happen this week or this month. And that question of what can I learn from where I am right now, feels really key. 

Caroline Webb: Yeah, I think that's right. It's much easier to be resilient to challenging situations, challenging jobs, if you think well, this is for now, there is a future... future me, there is a future phase. So how do I make the most of this right now? You know, how do I do good work in a way that allows me to learn and have a positive impact on the world knowing that I'm going to be doing something else next year, or the year after? 

And I think also a lot of people that I've encountered in my coaching world, where I'm working with a professional who just is really trying to do everything with the next job that they're in, or the job that they're in now, they want to achieve all these different things, and they're getting very stressed and they're exhausted, they're really working far too hard. And I said, well, what if you didn't try to do everything now? 

You know, what if you assumed that maybe this was a year that you focused on this goal, and then next year you could focus on that goal. You don't have to do everything now. And of course, you know, there's a counter to that, which is, well, you never know what's going to happen to you tomorrow. Maybe this is the year that you have, I mean, something tragic might happen to you at the end of the year, but, you know, that still allows you to say, okay, well, I'm going to live the best year that I can, right. And I'm going to not overload myself, I'm going to focus on one goal, I'm going to do it well rather than stretch myself far, far too thin. So I try and take a philosophical approach to that, and help the people I encounter do the same.

Jessi Hempel: Thank you so much, Caroline. It was great to speak to you.

Caroline Webb: Oh, thank you, it was really wonderful.

Jessi Hempel: That was Caroline Webb. You can visit her online at carolinewebb.co. 

I'm taking a little break from office hours this week, but that doesn't mean you should, producer Sarah Storm and contributor and Michaela Greer are going to be chatting with you, our community. They're talking about the New Golden Rule. With things reopening, how do you want to be treated? How do you think we should be treating others? They'll go live as usual, Wednesday afternoon 3:00 PM Eastern on the LinkedIn news page. You can find us by following LinkedIn news or emailing hellomonday@linkedin.com for the link. 

Hello Monday is a production of LinkedIn. The show is produced by Sarah Storm. Joe DiGiorgi mixed our show. Florencia Iriondo is Head of Original Audio and Video. Dave Pond is our Technical Director. Michaela Greer, Samantha Roberson, Carrington York and Victoria Taylor help us to do this purposeful work. Our music was composed just for us by the Mysterious Breakmaster Cylinder. Dan Roth is the Editor-in-Chief of LinkedIn.

I'm Jessi Hempel. We're back next Monday. Thanks for listening.