Must-Know Strategies Before Selling Your Business
Tim Fitzpatrick
MSP & B2B Professional Service Firm Marketing Consultant/Advisor | Fractional CMO | Build and manage your marketing engine to get where you want to go faster. | Remove Your Revenue Roadblocks
Welcome to the Rialto Marketing podcast. Today's episode is a revenue acceleration series interview where we talk to seven figure B2B professional service firm owners that are actively trying to grow their business and get to the next level. We talk about the good, the bad and the ugly so that you can learn from their experience.
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Must-Know Strategies Before Selling Your Business
Tim Fitzpatrick
Welcome to the Rialto Marketing podcast. Today's episode is a revenue acceleration series interview where we talk to seven-figure B2B service firm owners that are actively trying to grow their business and get to the next level. We talk about the good, the bad, and the ugly so that you can learn from their experience. Hi, I am Tim Fitzpatrick with Rialto Marketing, where we believe you must remove your revenue roadblocks if you want to accelerate growth and marketing shouldn't be difficult. Thank you so much for taking the time to tune in. I am super excited to have Kevin DeYoung from QualPath with me today. Kevin, welcome, and thanks for being here.
Kevin DeYoung
Hi, Tim. Great to be here.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yes. Well, before We hit record. You'd mentioned you're in Florida, you're here, you're doing okay. I am so thankful for that.
Kevin DeYoung
Thank goodness. Me too.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. A lot of people having hard times with some of the stuff going on down there, and hopefully they get the support they need to push through it. So I'm excited to dig into this with you today. You've got a ton of experience, and I know a wealth of knowledge that you can share with us. Before we dig into that, I want to ask you a few rapid fire questions if you're ready to jump in.
Kevin DeYoung
Sure. Let's do it.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Awesome. So very quickly, what do you do? How long have you been doing it?
Kevin DeYoung
Oh, goodness. I'm an entrepreneur and investor with 40 years of experience building and selling successful businesses. Currently, I'm working for the company that acquired my latest venture, helping to drive growth and innovation. Throughout my career, I balanced my professional pursuits with my most important role as a father to two wonderful sons.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Cool. What's the most important lesson you've learned? Forty years is a long time. There's all kinds of learning lessons, but what's one that comes to mind?
Kevin DeYoung
So consistency and adaptability, consistency in showing up every day, refining your processes, working towards your goals is absolutely crucial. Being adaptable because the market is ever changing, the environment the ecosystems, everything is changing. You have to be adaptable. Those are the two things that I've learned.
Tim Fitzpatrick
It goes with one of my favorite quotes is, Flexibility is the key to stability.
Kevin DeYoung
Oh, no doubt.
Tim Fitzpatrick
We've got to be able to to adapt and just go with it, right?
Kevin DeYoung
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more.
Tim Fitzpatrick
So, Kevin, we know growing a business is hard. Are there any motivational quotes or mantras that you say to yourself or share with your team when you're hitting those times of roadblock or hurdles?
Kevin DeYoung
Well, I'm a real big believer. And like I said before, consistency and adaptability, persistence and adaptability, I believe, are the keys to success. Every obstacle is an opportunity to innovate and grow. I also think that briefly, Steve Jobs used to say, You have to love what you do, and don't fight the old, build the new. And that's Socrates, by the way. And that's something that I've always remembered and kept in my mind as the business evolved and adapted to what was happening in the market.
Tim Fitzpatrick
I love that. Don't fight the old, build the new.
Kevin DeYoung
Don't fight the old, build the new, man.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Okay.
Kevin DeYoung
Yeah, I like that. Be the new, don't be the old.
Prioritizing Collaboration Towards Business Growth
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. So I know in our pre-interview, you mentioned that you shifted from being really protective of your business knowledge early on to now prioritizing collaboration. How has that mindset shift impacted your growth and how you approach business relationships?
Kevin DeYoung
Just a tremendous impact to growth with my first business that I started. Fast growth business, very successful, built some great processes and systems. And to me, that was our secret sauce, not to be shared with anybody, protected 100%, internally focused on just getting better. As I got older, I began to realize that in order for my organization to get better, it got better by me actually sharing and networking and becoming parts of other organizations whether they be nonprofit industry groups or groups that are business groups. But I got very involved in nonprofit industry groups and began to share what I was doing, and likewise, other like-minded passionate individuals began to share with me what they were doing. And that provocation and collaboration that I experienced gave me new ideas, and certainly I gave other people new ideas, and enabled us to install new processes and help get us a lot more competitive and in front of the market. Because remember, there are people out there always thinking about tomorrow, and you want to share those ideas. So I would encourage anybody in whatever industry they're to seek out the various organizations that are involved in your industry. Join them, get involved in them. I ultimately ended up being President of a nonprofit organization, in my industry. And that gave me a great opportunity to network. And the individuals and executives that I network with help my business grow even more. And so you can leverage these contacts. You can give to them. They can give to you. You can make your business better. And it's always good. I think businesses today have to be externally oriented. They have to take a look outside. What's happening outside? What is the market doing? I see a lot of businesses that are internally oriented. They're looking too much inside and not enough outside. And so this type of collaboration, reaching out, sharing, going as far as to speak at industry conferences, if you want to learn, teach, right? These types of things can help a business grow and get better. I'm a real big believer in that now. I've gone 180 degrees in my thinking process from my first organization.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. I think I want to second everything you just said. Because I think there's... For a lot of people, I think there's this fear of scarcity. If I share this, somebody's going to take it, and it's going to negatively impact me. I would just encourage people, if you find yourself in that place, that there's so much more to be gained by sharing, and there's potential downsides to it.
Kevin DeYoung
I think the myth of scarcity is something everybody needs to take a look at and understand doesn't exist. If somebody else is doing great, that doesn't remove your ability to be great. It just evidence is the fact that somebody else is doing really, really great, and you could do great, too. There's no scarcity here. At one point, I had tried consulting. I had a great model. I wanted to share it with other organizations, and I did so. You could give your playbook to your competitor, but execution is everything. Most of the time, they're not going to execute it, but you can get a lot of great ideas. But great point about scarcity. I don't believe in it. I believe that somebody else doing really, really well is just evidence that you can do well also.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. And you touched on this, too. It's like there's so many different ways we can learn by sharing with others, right? We can share with folks that are in the same business and have the same challenges. There's also huge benefits in sharing with other industries, people that are not in your business, because oftentimes we can take and adapt what they're doing well to our own industry. And so there's so many different places we can learn. I think it's just a matter of seeing it from an abundant mindset rather than a place of scarcity.
Kevin DeYoung
Yes. And as business owners or as on the line managers, a lot of times we're faced with the pressures of the job, the deadlines, the objectives that we have to hit. And we take a look at joining an industry group or joining a roundtable session is getting in the way of what it is that we're supposed to be doing right then and there. But having that discipline to reach outside your comfort zone and begin to interact with other individuals is very provocative and enlightening and well worth it. And I would recommend anybody watching this to give it a shot, give it a try, get involved, and you will be delighted with the friends you'll make the contacts you'll make, and some of the people that could actually help your business that want to help your business. There's nothing better than saying, Hey, can you help me out? I'm trying to figure this out. What do you think about this? These are really, really great things to reach out and do.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. Now, you recently sold QualPath after 20 years.
Kevin DeYoung
Yes.
The Emotional and The Strategic Process of Selling a Business
Tim Fitzpatrick
Can you walk us through the emotional and the strategic process of actually deciding to sell?
Kevin DeYoung
Yeah. Well, this is the second business that I sold, both businesses were fast growth businesses. And I'm very, very proud of that and proud of the people that helped me get there, the great individuals that worked in those organizations. I'm reminded of the former CEO of American Express, who once said, I think you can run an organization for about 10 years, and then you start to lose your edge a little bit, your intensity a little bit. And earlier this year, I began to just assess where I was with my life priorities and looked at what I enjoyed doing, what I didn't enjoy doing. And I came to the conclusion that while I have a great passion for the industry that I'm involved in, I wasn't enjoying owning the business anymore. I just, like I did with my first business, I got to a point, I grew it. It was a rocket ship, get to a point, and it's like, okay, I'm not having so much fun owning it anymore. That was about 10 years. And so understanding that and having that degree of clarity, I reached a conclusion that the responsible thing to do was to sell it to a quality organization that would continue what I started.
Tim Fitzpatrick
So you didn't initially start QualPath thinking about selling, yes?
Kevin DeYoung
Not initially, but I will tell you that's a really, really great question. Let me tell you my thinking. I believe anybody that is starting a business, unless it goes out of business, is going to sell that business. One has to think, even on day one, day two, year one, that they're going to sell that business, because we can't live forever, right? And so understanding that there's an end date to this makes you manage that business appropriately. You're thinking about that. A business needs to make you money while you own it or while you're managing needs to make you money when you put a bow on it and you sell it.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Recommended by LinkedIn
Yeah. I mean, you're either going to sell it or you're going to shut it down, right?
Kevin DeYoung
Right. I mean, you make It could work. Hopefully, it's working great. And the other two options are not shut it down, if not, sell it.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah.
Kevin DeYoung
And hopefully, whatever the conclusion is, it's a positive for you.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. I really appreciate you sharing that you weren't enjoying owning the business any longer because not a lot of entrepreneurs or business owners share that, right? It's okay to get tired of your business.
Kevin DeYoung
You know the crazy thing? I'm very transparent. And so when I went through the selling process, and we can talk about that, we will, I met with many people and they go, well, if your business is doing so well, why are you selling it? And I just said, I'm tired of owning it. I go, I'm just being honest with you. At that point, I'm tired of it. It's a great business. I'm just tired of owning it. There's nothing wrong with that type of clarity and recognition. It's okay to be at that point. It's important to be honest with yourself about where you're at.
A Very Thoughtful Approach in Selecting The Right Buyer
Tim Fitzpatrick
So let's talk about that a little bit. You made the choice, Hey, I want to sell. So you started to proactively get out there and find a potential buyer. And I know that you took a very thoughtful approach to selecting the right buyer for your company. Can you walk us through that a little bit?
Kevin DeYoung
Yeah, yeah. Well, for anybody that's watching, step one, once an individual realizes that, okay, this is where I'm at, for whatever reason, there could be many reasons why you want to sell a business. So whatever that reason is, it is. I would recommend, and it's what I did, find a great broker. Okay, find an organization, which I did. I selected a very good broker that is me in business valuation, presentation, and attracting interested parties. Be efficient. Do that first. Valuing your business properly, being able to justify it based on the financials is an important thing to do. Number one, reaching out the thousands of interested parties is the second thing. Let the broker do that for you. You do what you do. Let an expert do what they do. To who I sold to, I'm reminded of what Warren Buffett has said, you can't do a good deal with a bad person. And so it's very important to understand that. No matter what a contract says, no no matter what it is, you're looking for that good person or that good organization that you want to sell your business to. And there were many interested parties, many buyers. I think ultimately, it whittled down for me, 35 buyers. And I looked at my business. It was clean. We did business ethically. We cared about our customers. We had a positive environment, great vendor relationships and partnerships. Growth-oriented. I talked to many, many buyers, but what most interested me was a like-minded organization. We were, as an organization, an industry leader in our space. So for me, what was attractive to me was to do a deal with a great company that was as good, if not better, than what it is that I was doing. Good, positive individuals that I could trust, that were on the same plane, prospectually, that I was.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Would you say that that was more important to you than the end sale price?
Kevin DeYoung
Yeah, it was. I mean, I was offered more money by other buyers.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. Okay.
Kevin DeYoung
i'm not saying what I did is the right thing for everybody out there. It was the right thing for me. I think other people will sit in this same scenario, and they may... Who you sell to is a personal choice. You may want to sell for the most money. You don't care whatever. You may have an emotional investment in what you built and go with an organization that might be more fair-minded. You may go with an organization that you may be able to get involved with and continue your career or have fun with. I like to have fun in what I do. I've always had fun in what I do. I'll give you an example. When Perry Como passed away, not too long ago, people had asked him what he would attribute it to his long, long career. And his answer was, I never worked a day in my life. And for me, I've always enjoyed my work. I never really felt it was like work. So if you're looking also for something that gives you continuity and a passion that you enjoy, that may be a part of what it is that you're evaluating when you sell your business. But I will tell you that whomever you sell it to, I agree with Buffett, you can't do a good deal with a bad person. Check the people out. If you're going to sell to an organization, check them out. Make sure they're good business. They good deals. They don't have a lot of litigation, those types of things. Very, very important. But I believe I sold my organization to good people, trustworthy individuals, and a great company.
Tim Fitzpatrick
As you're talking through this, I like in this process to buying a house, right? When we go buy a house, we create this list of these are the must haves, these are things that would be nice, but we know what the non-negotiables are. We know that nothing's going to be perfect. But having that list allows us to look at evaluate a potential purchase. And the same thing goes with selling our business. What's most important to you? What do you want to see? What are the non-negotiables? Because as you point out, people from the outside looking in might always go, Oh, well, they just want to maximize their sale price. That's not the most important thing for everyone. And we have to know what's most important for us. That's going to help us evaluate deals and find the right buyer.
Kevin DeYoung
Well, yeah. I think, once again, what are your priorities? I've built a reputation over 40 years. And so I'm always a little bit concerned about the reputation I built, the good name that I have and How you sell your business and who that goes to it says a lot about where your head was really at when you were running your business and what your thoughts are about your legacy. It's far too common, you'll hear somebody sold their business. They totally disappeared off the face of the earth, and they left that business hanging. And that's okay, too. I'm not going to judge that. We all have a reason. You own your business, you get to do what you want with it. So we all have our different reasons for who we sell to. But I couldn't agree more. Have a perspective of what you want that sale to look like and who you want to sell to. And just keep in mind, you can paper all the legal issue you want in an acquisition document or sell document. They still have to be good people. They still have to be good people you're selling to, I believe.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, it's it seems silly to say it, but I think this is so appropriate for business and just life in general, right? Like, if we don't actually detail and write down what we want, how the hell are we ever going to get it?
Kevin DeYoung
You know, you go to the example of buying a house. I just sold a house, and I could not have been happier with the people who bought my house. And so it just made me really feel good that that house was going to be put to good use by a family that is going to totally enjoy it and get the best use out of it. And so there's that... What do you call it? A psychological paycheck, right? That little psychological makes you feel good about what you just did. And so if you can get that, get a reasonable price for your business, sell it to a good organization, continue the legacy that you started, they'll continue that on. If you can get all of that, that's a really winning proposition for you.
Tim Fitzpatrick
The other thing you highlighted, Kevin, which I think is maybe easy for people to overlook is you got a broker involved. Sometimes people get attorneys. Whatever expertise you need with in that process, you need to be open-minded and go find it because those experts are going to be able to highlight your blind spots and uncover things that you just don't see in that process.
Kevin DeYoung
Well, and they deal with buyers all the time. They're in that space. I mean, we all live in a world of specialty. And we, as business owners, may be running a business that people are outsourcing to us. So what's wrong with us outsourcing reinforcing a specific discipline that somebody is going to do far better, faster, and more efficiently than we are? Let's just go ahead and do that and take care of that one piece, which we may find incredibly daunting and difficult and could slow the process down. And you're absolutely right, too. They're going to look at things and surface things that need to be addressed, and they're going to provide guidelines for how you need to go to market. To me, I don't know of any other way to do it. Go find a great partner and go to market. Go to market.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. But I mean, those experts can help us from making a bad deal, right? So what we pay them is well worth the cost.
Kevin DeYoung
Absolutely. Positively. I would recommend anybody do that, get one first, then work on it, and that'll make your job much, much easier if you're going to sell it. No question.
Tim Fitzpatrick
We don't know what we don't know. When you're selling a business, there's tax implications, there's legal implications, all of these things. We need to have the right people on our team to help guide us through that.
Kevin DeYoung
Well, you really do. There's a lot of, and I would caution anybody, there's a lot of people out there that want to broker your business. You got to really look around and find the legitimate ones, the ones that are actually going to go to market, the that are actually going to work with what you have and help you present it in the most logical, accurate fashion. Then, of course, when you go down that road, there are contracts, and so you need really good legal advice. And the broker is going to help you. Your attorney will help you. All of these things are important in this process, no question. Once you've crossed that threshold that you want to sell it, these are the things you have to start to pay attention to.
Key Lessons from Scaling a Company and Positioning It for Long Term Success
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. So Kevin, you've successfully sold two businesses. You've been doing this for 40 years. What key lessons have you learned about scaling a company and positioning it for long term success?
Kevin DeYoung
Okay, there's many different ways to skin this cap, right? And I will tell you that, once again, I'm going to go back to my premise is you start a business, you're going to sell business. That's just how I look at it. And so my idea from a business modeling, without getting too specific in the actual industry that I was in, was the first thing you have to understand is what is the optimal profile for your business? And when I started this last business, I started to just make a list. What generally is this business going to be? And for me, it was a business to business business. It wasn't going to be location dependent. It was going to have reoccurring revenues after the initial sale that would have a degree of predictability to it. And those were the initial things. Now, from that, a variety of different options presented themselves to me. I'm a real big believer, once again, speaking generally, of low overhead. So I'm a real big believer in variableized expenses to revenue and a real big believer in outsourcing. How much can I outsource on a quality basis, mind you, with good quality controls, various aspects of this business that would allow me to scale and just focus on revenue generation. Because revenue generation, I mean, when you own a business, sales revenue is a great deodorant, and you can overcome a lot. It cures a lot of ills by growth. The infrastructure piece, the overhead piece, you always want to be careful with. You don't want to take on too much fixed overhead too early. And my old saying is, first be effective, then be efficient. So you You want to have a good sales model. You want to have a good go-to-market strategy, whatever that is. Now, that could be different if you're selling to the consumer versus to a B2B business. What's the nature? Mine was B2B, non-location dependent, selling outside, not inside, contractual reoccurring revenue, 3-5 years out there, predictable margins of profit, outsourcing, variabilized expenses to the revenue. All of these things allow an organization, particularly when they're first starting, it gives them time. Because one of the biggest problems for a new business or a new starting business is how well or how poorly they're capitalized. And so you see a lot of businesses, particularly new businesses, going under because they're poorly capitalized. So rule number one is how can you scale at the lowest possible cost? Usually that's outsource. Can you outsource? Can you be efficient? Can you do it expertly? Can you serve your customers on a quality basis? And can you just focus on revenue growth? Can you get that done? It's not easy, but this type of format, generally, speaking generally, makes it easier to grow your business, to scale your business, focusing on the growth aspects of it.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. So I want... You started by answering this question, talking about the optimal business profile. And the way I heard that was what you really did, again, looking at what you wanted, you started to look at what attributes the business needed to have. Right?
Kevin DeYoung
Yes. You have to do that. You have to do that.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Because this is such a critical point here because it... What attributes did you want it to have and why? Because there are plenty of us. I have been there as well, where we start to build this business and we reach a point where we're like, oh, crap, I don't like this business. And then we end up having to shift to make it the way we want it.
Kevin DeYoung
This is such an important part because you have to, you almost have to throw out every industry you can possibly think of and then just start to sit there and go, what's the profile of this business? Forget the industry. What is it doing? How is it working? And I'll give you an example. I said it was not going to be location dependent. It was going to be it was going to have a good reoccurring revenue stream. I ultimately decided on B2B. But while I entered the B2B industry, and I was serving other businesses in the technology space, one of the businesses I looked at very sincerely was portable on demand storage. And you see them all around pods. And I looked at that only because I didn't need a premier piece of real estate. I could have a piece of real estate out in Timbuktoo. People would stick their stuff in this pod. I could store it in a warehouse. It would have a good reoccurring revenue stream, a predictable margin of profit. I didn't go down that road. But by going down a particular road in terms of how you want this business to behave, then when you're 10 years into it, 12 years into it, you're... You have a business that's behaving the way you originally wanted it to behave. So it really then is more about adoption, as opposed to I got to blow this thing up and start all over again. This thing just isn't working, and I got to bail. And I would always tell people, look, if you're going to sell something, if your business is going to sell something, and this is just my belief, there's got to be revenue after that sale. It's really, really hard to get that first sale, to get that first customer. What is the aftermarket revenue that your organization is going to achieve as a result of fighting so hard to get that customer? You've got to have that because that's what pays your bills. That's what makes your payroll. That's what does all of these things. And over time, and I'm going to use a fancy word to to, probably not to most, you're looking for building a creative revenue. You're looking for building revenue on top of revenue over time. And my favorite saying when you're doing that is, the longer you're in business, the longer you're in business. When you work a business that way, so it has that degree of sustainability and predictability that, first of all, gives the business owner a peace of mind, number one, and then also makes it a very attractive acquisition target, number two.
Tim Fitzpatrick
It brings to mind, the first business I was a partner in was a wholesale distribution company, and we sold home theater equipment. We sold to your traditional home theater installers, but then we also had clients that were alarm dealers. So they were used to selling home security, which has ongoing monitoring. And the thing that always stood out to me between those two is all the alarm guys, especially the ones that have been in it for a long time, had been building up this pool of monitored accounts. And some of them Some of them had 500, some of them had a thousand, some of them had 10,000 monitored accounts. That was their retirement. The Home Theater guys were always looking for the next job, the next job, the next job, the next job because it was the It was the paycheck. And without that, their business was gone. With the alarm dealers, they had this built-in base of recurring revenue that was always there. And anything they did on top of that was just a bonus.
Kevin DeYoung
That's exactly what I'm talking about. So when you're looking at your business or you're looking at starting a new business, to me, that has to be a part of the business. I mean, I would not enter a business where I'm earning a customer every single time, and I don't have that ongoing relationship. The Razor-Razor-Blade business is really what it's all about. And you could see that even today, your best companies are subscription-based. That's what they're doing. As a matter of fact, there's too many of these sneaky little subscriptions that we have hitting our credit cards every month. But you want that ongoing contract revenue. It should be a part of your business. And if it's not, you need to get that installed as part of your business to make your life easier and your business more predictable.
Conclusion
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah. I love it. So, Kevin, this has been fantastic, man. I appreciate you sharing all your experience with us. One last question. Knowing what you know now, is there anything you would do differently?
Kevin DeYoung
Gosh, I made so many mistakes. I made so many mistakes that I actually wrote down a rules list. And the number of mistakes I made in my year, it And my career is 70. And every time I would make a major mistake, I'd write it down and I go, this is what I learned from it. I'm a logical person, and running a business is very, very emotional. And a lot of times we make decisions based on hope and not logic. And we want things to work out. What I've learned from my mistakes is this. If you're going to hire somebody, hire someone you can trust. And continue. Number two, I'm going to cheat, and I'm going to tell you, number two, there have been times where I did not meet with my customers. I got distant from them. So what I've learned is, meet with your customers. They're the best research and development you're going to get. They're going to tell you what they're buying. They're going to tell you where you can improve. Sometimes it's painful, sometimes it's not. But the mistake that I made was, at times, not meeting with my customers, which was stupid, silly. And meet with your customers. It's the best research and development that you're ever going to get for your business.
Tim Fitzpatrick
So many of us overlook that. And it's low hanging fruit. It's right there. I'll go back to another example from distribution. We had tons of will call business, so people would come in to pick up. And some of the most valuable conversations I had were when we were loading stuff into a customer's van or truck, talking to them, but also I could see what else was in their truck or their van. What else were they buying that they were not buying from us? Was it something that we didn't carry? Were they just buying from a competitor? Absolutely invaluable. And it was there available to us every freaking day, day in, day out.
Kevin DeYoung
Yeah. So that's how you add to your product portfolio. That's how you can improve certain things. Probably the biggest mistake I've made that I've learned from, and that I would encourage people, don't make the mistake that I've made in that light.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Kevin, thank you. Where can people learn more about you if they want to connect?
Kevin DeYoung
Look me up on my LinkedIn profile.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Yeah, cool.
Kevin DeYoung
Anything that I can do, I'm here, if at all possible, to help my fellow business owners out there, the fellow entrepreneurs, people that are trying to do the best they can. Reach to me. I mean, anything that I can do to help you, I would be more than happy to do that. And I hope what we've just done here today furthers that objective.
Tim Fitzpatrick
Awesome. We will make sure that link gets in the show notes, but it's linkedin.com/in/kevindey. Kevin, thank you again. Those of you that are watching, listening, appreciate you as well. If you want to connect with us, you can do that at rialtomarketing.com, which is rialtomarketing.com. The other tool we've got for you is over at revenueroadblockscorecard.com. If you want to know which of the nine revenue roadblocks are slowing down your growth, that's where you can do it. Takes less than five minutes, so take advantage of it. Kevin, thank you again. And those that are watching listening, thank you. Until next time. Take care.