ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
If you've followed Stephen Colbert's career closely, you might have picked up on something. It's there back in his days on "The Colbert Report."
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STEPHEN COLBERT: As a proud son of South Carolina folks, I rarely have kind words for those barbarians to the North.
(LAUGHTER)
COLBERT: I mean, who makes barbecue sauce with vinegar? That's what you use to clean a toilet.
SHAPIRO: ...Or that time on "The Late Show" when he took calls on the Butterball Turkey Talk-Line the weekend before Thanksgiving.
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UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: This is really a question about stuffing. If I...
COLBERT: OK. Do you call it stuffing or dressing?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON: I call it stuffing.
COLBERT: OK. Wrong answer. Bye-bye.
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SHAPIRO: This man has opinions about food. Like, strong opinions.
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COLBERT: Where's my tomato? There isn't any. And a BLT without the T is just a BL. It's bluh (ph).
(LAUGHTER)
COLBERT: And if that abomination meets the standard for a BLT, then what did we fight at Lexington and Concord for?
(LAUGHTER)
COLBERT: Just rip the Constitution off the Statue of Liberty and erase the map on the back, because the American experiment has failed. No, you're the one who's overreacting.
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SHAPIRO: And it turns out he has strong opinions about food off-camera, too. Stephen and his wife, Evie McGee-Colbert, say they basically live in the kitchen. And when I talked to them a while back, it did not take long before they were holding forth on the proper way to make Hoppin' John.
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EVIE MCGEE-COLBERT: It's hard to find field peas up here, but you really want to make it with good field peas. But...
SHAPIRO: Are field peas the same as black-eyed peas?
MCGEE-COLBERT: They're a little smaller. Tiny, little bit smaller.
COLBERT: Or they could be exactly the same thing, but Charlestonians will not acknowledge that.
MCGEE-COLBERT: You know, honestly, I think my...
SHAPIRO: There's also the grits-hominy divide.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Yeah. Oh, that's important.
COLBERT: The grits-hominy divide is very important...
SHAPIRO: Very important.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Very real.
COLBERT: ...And controversial.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Very real.
SHAPIRO: Very important and controversial. OK.
COLBERT: Yes.
SHAPIRO: Let's settle this.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Charlestonians say hominy.
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SHAPIRO: CONSIDER THIS - the Colberts have written a cookbook. It's called "Does This Taste Funny?" It's a delightful window into their marriage and the food of the South Carolina Lowcountry where they both grew up.
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SHAPIRO: From NPR, I'm Ari Shapiro.
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SHAPIRO: It's CONSIDER THIS FROM NPR. Stephen Colbert and his wife Evie both grew up in Charleston, South Carolina. But as kids, they never met.
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COLBERT: Yes, we grew up in the same town together. But one of us is a year older.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Yeah, that's the truth, Ari.
COLBERT: And I'm not supposed to say which one.
MCGEE-COLBERT: He's younger than I am. Just one year.
SHAPIRO: Just one year.
MCGEE-COLBERT: But in high school, that's a huge difference.
SHAPIRO: Of course.
COLBERT: Because she went to the girls' school, and I went to what had been mostly a boys' school, and they mixed on dances, like, you know, eighth-grade dance, ninth-grade dance. And so we weren't in the same dance together, so how would I meet her?
SHAPIRO: As adults, they moved away. And in 1990, they were both visiting Charleston for the annual Spoleto arts festival. Each of them went to the opera with their mothers.
MCGEE-COLBERT: I remember seeing Stephen walk into the theater with his mother on his arm, and I thought, that man loves his mother. You could just see...
SHAPIRO: That is a good way to choose a husband.
MCGEE-COLBERT: It is...
SHAPIRO: ...Somebody who treats the...
MCGEE-COLBERT: ...Actually, a really great way to...
SHAPIRO: ...Women in his family well.
MCGEE-COLBERT: A hundred percent.
SHAPIRO: Well, 30 years after they got married, they've written a cookbook. As we mentioned, it's called "Does This Taste Funny?: Recipes Our Family Loves." And many of the recipes come from Evie's late mother, who was renowned for entertaining.
COLBERT: First thing I had - the first thing I had at the McGee house was the Patti McGee's cheese biscuits.
SHAPIRO: Which was, like, a top-secret recipe until this...
MCGEE-COLBERT: Exactly.
SHAPIRO: ...Cookbook, right?
COLBERT: Yes.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Exactly.
SHAPIRO: So what's the secret?
COLBERT: Butter.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Mom would say the secret is one stick butter, one stick margarine 'cause she felt that sort of balance, instead of two of margarine or two of butter.
SHAPIRO: Stephen, you were one of 11 kids.
COLBERT: I'm the youngest of 11, which is a key position.
SHAPIRO: Yeah. So efficiency was more important than elegance when it came to food in your childhood home.
COLBERT: My mother did not make any recipes that could not be found on the back of a ketchup bottle.
SHAPIRO: But you did learn some skills that are relevant to the kitchen.
COLBERT: Well, sure, 'cause if you wanted something that wasn't at the proper mealtime, you had to go make it yourself.
SHAPIRO: I was thinking, like, you'd learned fishing, crabbing, shrimping.
COLBERT: Oh, sure.
SHAPIRO: Like, you...
COLBERT: 'Cause I grew up on James Island, South Carolina.
SHAPIRO: Yeah.
COLBERT: See, this is the city girl...
MCGEE-COLBERT: (Laughter).
COLBERT: ...Who lived in downtown Charleston. I lived out in the country on a dirt road on James Island, so I was out there catching my own bream and crab and shrimp and flounder.
MCGEE-COLBERT: I did that, too, by the way.
SHAPIRO: What I'm building up to is...
COLBERT: You didn't do it as much as I did 'cause you were off playing with your dolls without faces.
MCGEE-COLBERT: (Laughter).
COLBERT: And you're...
SHAPIRO: Dolls without faces?
COLBERT: Well, she grew up like "Little House On The Prairie" or something.
SHAPIRO: Oh, like, made of corn husks...
MCGEE-COLBERT: (Laughter).
COLBERT: She grew up...
SHAPIRO: ...That kind of thing?
COLBERT: She doesn't have any, like, early '70s TV references, 'cause when I was watching TV, she was, like, I was playing with paper dolls in my attic.
MCGEE-COLBERT: (Laughter) Sounds like I'm about a hundred years old.
SHAPIRO: So wholesome. So wholesome.
COLBERT: No, she had, like - you had a 19th-century childhood in downtown Charleston. You did.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Very pure. Very pure.
COLBERT: You had - very traditional, yes.
SHAPIRO: I wanted to know if you've retained these skills, and so we brought a whole salmon that's under the table and a knife - scales, head, tail - everything.
MCGEE-COLBERT: (Laughter).
COLBERT: I will fillet them.
SHAPIRO: Can you...
MCGEE-COLBERT: No wonder it smells a little odd in here. I was wondering.
COLBERT: I will fillet the hell out of that thing.
SHAPIRO: Can you still do that? Do you still, like...
COLBERT: I can do that on a rocking boat, baby.
SHAPIRO: Really?
COLBERT: Oh, yeah. I just - we were just out - I fish whenever I can. We were 70 miles offshore, caught a beautiful wahoo. I filleted just the tailpiece, chopped it up, threw it in a little container there with some salt and some lime and some cilantro and a little chopped-up shallot. Closed that thing up, put it in the cooler. By noon - that's about 8 a.m. when you catch the first fish. By noon...
SHAPIRO: You just leveled up. You're like...
MCGEE-COLBERT: I was going to say, Ari, that was the best question we have been asked in a week.
COLBERT: By noon, it's ceviche, baby.
(LAUGHTER)
COLBERT: Get yourself a Corona. We're good.
SHAPIRO: Suddenly, this interview got a very different vibe.
MCGEE-COLBERT: No kidding.
SHAPIRO: (Laughter).
COLBERT: We started talking about fishing and knives.
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SHAPIRO: OK. You say you want this book to feel like hanging out with you in the kitchen.
COLBERT: Yes.
SHAPIRO: Paint a picture for us. What does that feel like with the two of you?
MCGEE-COLBERT: Maybe a little bit of the animosity we're having right now.
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COLBERT: Well, who's in control of the pan? That's the issue. Who's in control of the pan at any one time? We have learned - 31 years into our marriage, we're now finally willing to sous chef for the other one.
SHAPIRO: Well, 'cause one of you is a chaos Muppet and one of you is an order Muppet, right?
MCGEE-COLBERT: I'm the order Muppet.
SHAPIRO: Shocking.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Shocking. I know. I know. Very surprising.
SHAPIRO: (Laughter).
COLBERT: And I'm going to figure it out as we go, man. That's why I don't bake, 'cause you have to be a rule follower.
SHAPIRO: You can't improvise a cake.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Right. You can't.
COLBERT: Yes. Evie was the salutatorian of her class.
SHAPIRO: I don't know that word.
COLBERT: It's the - it's not the valedictorian.
MCGEE-COLBERT: It's not valedictorian.
COLBERT: It's No.2.
SHAPIRO: Oh, it's like the runner-up.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Yeah.
SHAPIRO: It's the silver medalist.
COLBERT: It's No. 2.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Yeah. The also (ph).
COLBERT: Yes, exactly.
MCGEE-COLBERT: (Laughter).
COLBERT: So she follows rules. She does the homework assignments.
MCGEE-COLBERT: I do the homework assignment, a hundred percent.
COLBERT: And I improvise.
SHAPIRO: For people who are not familiar with the Lowcountry, with South Carolina, with Charleston, how would you describe what the food of that community, of that place is?
COLBERT: Ooh. Seafood is the No.1 thing because Charleston is so low-lying that it's not, like, on the sea, it's frequently in the sea. It's not particularly complicated, but it's really fresh seafood ingredients with a heavy West African influence because of the West African slave trade. We have okra, we have red rice, which is very much like jollof or yollof (ph) rice from West Africa. Peanuts, sesame. All of that is still in all the cuisine of South Carolina and the Lowcountry.
SHAPIRO: Evie, you're more vegan than not, so...
MCGEE-COLBERT: (Laughter).
SHAPIRO: ...What is your favorite?
COLBERT: You are so selectively vegan.
MCGEE-COLBERT: I'm a little more - I'm a pescatarian now.
SHAPIRO: Sure.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Cheese and I are good friends again.
SHAPIRO: I absolutely...
MCGEE-COLBERT: We made it up.
SHAPIRO: ...Understand.
COLBERT: Yeah.
MCGEE-COLBERT: (Laughter).
SHAPIRO: This book has got a lot of meat recipes.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Right. Right.
SHAPIRO: What's your favorite little trick to make something meatless?
MCGEE-COLBERT: Well, so Stephen did a great thing with this red rice he was talking about. Usually, it's made with bacon and bacon fat, and he said, let's try it with smoked salt and a little anchovy. It's so good.
SHAPIRO: Oh, that sounds great.
MCGEE-COLBERT: It's actually better. I would challenge anyone to try the original with what's in our cookbook. It's so much better. Now, shots fired. I realize that.
(LAUGHTER)
SHAPIRO: There's room for a lot of variations.
COLBERT: Yeah.
MCGEE-COLBERT: That's right.
SHAPIRO: Purity is not the goal.
COLBERT: Yeah.
MCGEE-COLBERT: That's true.
SHAPIRO: Stephen, you've written a lot of books, but none quite like this one.
COLBERT: None as good as this one.
SHAPIRO: None as good as this one. Well, because with this one, you had a collaborator.
COLBERT: I know.
MCGEE-COLBERT: There you go.
SHAPIRO: ...That you've been married to for many years.
MCGEE-COLBERT: There you go.
COLBERT: I know. I was nervous about that.
SHAPIRO: Really? What were you nervous about?
COLBERT: Well, we were nervous about just working together at all, but COVID threw us together because Evie was my crew and my audience and my only guest. And I was super nervous when we started that. I was like, well, what if she doesn't like this? What if I'm a horrible boss?
SHAPIRO: (Laughter).
COLBERT: Or what if I'm a boss at all? 'Cause that's not our relationship at all. But we had such a good time that - we had been - I had been offered the opportunity to do a cookbook before, but it wasn't until we worked together and had a good time I went, oh, no, this would be fun to actually just sort of extend this relationship we've already started during the COVID shows and to do a project together. And it was nerve-wracking at first, but it turned out to be a complete joy.
SHAPIRO: Can we conclude with a lightning round?
COLBERT: Oh, sure.
SHAPIRO: Best way to eat a potato?
COLBERT: Scalloped.
MCGEE-COLBERT: French fry.
COLBERT: OK.
SHAPIRO: OK. Dish you're most famous for?
COLBERT: Red rice.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Lentil soup.
SHAPIRO: Red rice, lentil soup. Most useful kitchen skill?
MCGEE-COLBERT: Spatula. You have to be able to flip something really quickly.
SHAPIRO: Your personal most useful kitchen skill.
MCGEE-COLBERT: That's all I can do (laughter).
SHAPIRO: You can flip the thing with the spatula. Stephen?
COLBERT: Dicing.
SHAPIRO: Dicing. OK. Most obscure kitchen skill?
COLBERT: Pick up hot things.
SHAPIRO: You've got asbestos fingers?
MCGEE-COLBERT: I've got a better one.
COLBERT: I've got asbestos fingers.
MCGEE-COLBERT: I got a better one - deveining a shrimp.
SHAPIRO: Very good.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Thank you.
SHAPIRO: Very Lowcountry.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Yeah.
SHAPIRO: Biggest kitchen disagreement?
MCGEE-COLBERT: Well...
COLBERT: Do you have to peel tomatoes?
MCGEE-COLBERT: Yes.
COLBERT: No.
(LAUGHTER)
SHAPIRO: Your spouse's most annoying kitchen habit?
MCGEE-COLBERT: Oh, boy.
COLBERT: Oh.
MCGEE-COLBERT: (Laughter).
COLBERT: Oh.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Well, one of...
COLBERT: Well, sometimes...
MCGEE-COLBERT: (Laughter).
COLBERT: Sometimes - and it's been almost 31 years. But sometimes, Evie likes to stir the bottom of a nonstick pot with a metal spoon.
MCGEE-COLBERT: And sometimes, Stephen can be very bossy and critical.
SHAPIRO: OK. What you cook to tell your spouse, I love you?
COLBERT: Aw.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Stephen used to make me scones every Mother's Day.
COLBERT: Yeah.
MCGEE-COLBERT: I loved those.
COLBERT: Lentil soup, banana bread for you.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Banana bread. I make a lot of banana bread.
COLBERT: Yeah.
MCGEE-COLBERT: I did try - I think I talked about it in the cookbook. I tried when we first got married to make chicken l'orange 'cause he said he loved it. I never made it right. I gave up.
COLBERT: Never. You still have not made it right.
SHAPIRO: (Laughter) You tried.
MCGEE-COLBERT: I tried.
COLBERT: Yes. It's what my mom would make for my birthday every year.
SHAPIRO: Last question of the lightning round - best drink to unwind with after a grueling NPR interview?
COLBERT: I'm a simple man. I like an old fashioned.
MCGEE-COLBERT: I mean, I guess in the winter, maybe, like a - I like chardonnay. Couple of glasses of that.
COLBERT: Couple, two, three glasses of chardonnay...
MCGEE-COLBERT: You know, then I can unwind.
COLBERT: ...This one loosens up. Yep.
SHAPIRO: Stephen Colbert and Evie McGee-Colbert, thank you so much for the conversation.
COLBERT: Thank you. This was fun.
MCGEE-COLBERT: Thank you, Ari. This was great.
SHAPIRO: Their new cookbook is "Does This Taste Funny?: Recipes Our Family Loves."
This episode was produced by Noah Caldwell and Connor Donevan, with audio engineering by Tiffany Vera Castro. It was edited by Courtney Dorning. Our executive producer is Sami Yenigun.
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SHAPIRO: It's CONSIDER THIS FROM NPR. I'm Ari Shapiro.
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